Powers: 99d6 problems

[Joose]

I've been pushing forward with Powers again recently, in part at least down to the fact that Grimmie shouts "POWERS!" at me whenever we talk about RPGs

The new version is starting to shape up nicely, with some of the core rules revised, things like character progression starting to take shape and four times as many components for you to mess around with. Im still butting my head against the old dice rolling problem though.

Im sticking with a dice pool system because all other systems have limits of how flexiable they are. I want this system to be able to model everything from Kick-Ass to Superman any beyond, with the possibility of progressing your character all the way from one to the other if you keep playing them for long enough. Although Eclipse Phase has convinced me that a percentile system is the tits, it just isnt flexiable enough for that.

The trouble is that although a dice pool system is *in theory* as flexiable is you need it to be, *in practise* you are limited by physical constraints. Rolling 57d6 and counting up how many of them come up 5s and 6s is an impossibly stupid situation, but one that could easily come up in the current system. Hell, in the current system, with high level characters, you could potentially have 4 figure dice pools. Thats just not going to work.

The workaround I included with the last version of the rules seemed like it would address this just fine: if your dice pools start getting out of hand, divide both the pool and the target by the same amount and round to the nearest number. If the pool becomes 0, its physically impossible for your character to achieve (Kick-Ass trying to lift a bus, for example), and if the target becomes 0 it is so trivially easy that you dont even need to roll (Superman opening a jam jar).

Trouble is, although this sounds like a perfect solution on paper, when you start actually doing it for realsies it all goes horribly wrong. The problem is basically that there are two ways of going about it, and both of them have massive issues:

1) Always divide in 10s (or 100s, or 1000s depending on the size of the pool). Nice simple maths, but it rounds things too much. You get daft situations where having an attribute of, say, 65 is statistically identical to having the same attribute at 74. You either dont divide the pool and end up with a bucket of dice being poured across the gaming table, or you do divide the pool and have essentially wasted a whole bunch of points upgrading the stat 9 times.

2) Divide by whatever makes the dice pool manageable with the least amount of dice reduction. For example, the above example could be divided by 4 and give a manageable amount of dice to roll without making the increase in stats pointless. The downside is that it makes the math more complex: pretty much everyone can divide by 10 in thier heads, but a significant amount of people would have to whip a calculator out to work out the best number to divide 143 by to make the dice pool nice and tidy, and would then have to keep the calculator out to actually do the division. Its just swapping one ballache for a different ballache, it doesnt actually make anything better.

Ive thought of one possible fix for this, which slightly fudges the maths to make things easy to do and make character advancement not seem like a waste of time: split dice pools into Tiers.

What im thinking is this: when a dice pool gets to a certain amount, instead of just spending points to make it get bigger, the player can make it go up a Tier. People with Tier 1 dice pools should even bother attempting a Tier 2 task, and Tier 2 dice pools should pass Tier 1 tasks without rolling a dice. It costs more to upgrade Tier 2 dice pools than Tier 1 dice pools. If the GM wants to make someone roll dice, or the player really, really wants to attempt something they shouldnt be able to do there could be some sort of exception rules: maybe if its a Tier 2 pool vs a Tier 1 task, but the GM thinks its dramatic enough that the player should be rolling anyway, they make the roll against a target number of 1. Stuff like that. The pools would go up a Tier somewhere around where the amount of dice starts to get silly (im thinking around the 20 dice mark), and can go up as far as you like (Tier 2, Tier 10, Tier 400, whatever).

What do you guys think?

[Dog Pants]

That certainly quantifies it a lot more and seems simple enough. It also sort of fits in with the scales you're using for things like range and speed. Although you could sort of equate it with levels, which I know you don't like, I like this kind of system. I saw it in Star Wars and I'm using a similar concept (if not very similar in execution) for Wild Black Yonder. Playtesting will hopefully iron out any issues and give you a good idea of where to set the scales.

[Joose]

Although you could sort of equate it with levels, which I know you don't like, I like this kind of system.

Actually, Powers now includes a system which is a mash up of levels and a points buy system, which im hoping has the advantages of both.

[HereComesPete]

How about go with division of dice pool and go for the tiers option as well, because I like the tiers idea.

Instead of labelling the between points as wasted, label any numbers that don't end in a 0 with something like 'your powers grow, soon you will be capable of greater feats', or some such other fluff, it's not wasted points, it's burgeoning heroism! Only when the attribute sits at a whole number 10, 20, 30, 100, 1000 etc do the points count. The points in between 10-20 - 11-19 are progression of power that hasn't manifested yet so the character is a rank of 10 until they get that extra point that makes them rank 20.

And maybe for super power types the points between 1000 and 1100 - 1001-1099 are again progression of power, the fact that there's a lot more points needing to be spent is due to the level of the power and offest by the increased rewards given at those levels.

The same scoring mechanism as your option 1, that boils down to the smallest possible number of dice to roll, but with a positive spin and no fudging of dice.

I like the tiers idea but with a slight addition. Using the tiers could allow you to build tier 1, tier 2 etc adventures, kind of like the bpn coding in SLA. e.g you have a bunch of tier 1 adventurers, but a juicy tier 2 option arrives that when working together they can possibly accomplish, but they know the risk of going up tier may well be death, the rewards are of course phat loot and more points. And factoring in your dramatic moment clause to allow players to go beyond their superhuman potential allows fudging for the sake of story.

[Joose]

The Tier system seems like a popular direction, so ive gone with that. The new, much more near complete version nears...er...completion!

[Dog Pants]

Woo!

[Joose]

You know things are going well when you start putting Warren Ellis quotes in your game.

"Floating Guns. Controlled with Murder Thoughts"

New example power created!

[Joose]

Alright, theres one last thing I want to nail down before I can do a bit of tidying up and release the new version: Actions.

The current system goes like this: by default, when it comes to your turn you can perform one action. Anything you do counts as an action, activating/maintaining/deactivating a power, moving, talking, using something, whatever. You can choose to do more than one action at a time, but every time you add an action, *all* of your dice pools are halved (rounded down), and you have to declare all of the actions you are doing in one turn before you throw any dice.

So, for example, lets say you have three powers, power X with a dice pool of 10, power Y with a dice pool of 20, and power Z with a dice pool of 30. You could:

1) just use power x and roll 10 dice.
2) use power x with 5 dice and Y with 10
3) use x with 2, y with 5 and z with 7

There are, as with most things in this game, a bunch of exceptions:

Some actions are "Effortless". The default ones are talking or looking at something, but you can also buy "Effortless" as a component for a power. Doing an Effortless action doesnt count to the above rule; no dice pools are halved for doing it at the same time as another action.

If the character has a power affecting him with the Multitasking component, they can do a number of actions simultaneously before they have to start halving dicepools. The exact number of actions depends on the level of Multitasking.

Some actions are Complex. This is a power component, and means that they cannot be done with another action, even if you have multitasking or the other action is Effortless.

All good so far. What I would like though is another level, between Effortless and the default, where doing it makes things a *little* harder, but not so hard that halving dice pools would make sense. For example, shooting a gun whilst walking forward is a little harder than shooting standing still, but not nearly as hard as shooting two guns at the same time. My initial thought would be that adding this kind of action imposes a set penalty on the dice pool, but im not sure how to work that out. Just saying "-1 to other dice pools" works at lower levels, but at higher levels it becomes meaningless. Im not talking Superman high levels either, just a little bit above normal human. But setting it at higher than that means making it harder for a normal human to fire whilst moving slowly than firing two guns, which is silly. The only other option I can think of would be a small but dynamic number: the best option I can think of being -10% to all dice pools. That would work, but I want to minimise the amount of math needed in combat. I know dividing things by ten isnt exactly degree level shit, but it all adds up.

Anyone got a better idea (just for this last bit, I would rather not have to rework the whole action system at this point!)

[HereComesPete]

I'm going to have to be awkward (as usual) and point out that to me effortless pretty much means as easy as breathing, an almost subconscious action. As such that term to me would apply to something that can be done at any time even if a complex action is also being carried out, unless there are circumstances that mean it's no longer something someone can do without devoting active brain power to it.

What made me think this strangely enough was that book about a pyro that Stephen King wrote, he can use his mind power to set stuff on fire, but using it too much or whilst he's tired/hurt makes it a lot harder and he has to think about it a lot more and suffers physical side affects.

I would go for 'effortless' be usable with complex actions but it can be attacked to turn them from 'effortless' to 'almost effortless' thus nullifying their use with other complex powers. And almost effortless is where the in between effortless and normal comes in that you were looking for. And a damage track for the character would have a threshold to show when effortless becomes almost effortless and these powers and any that are tagged as complex can no longer be used together.

Maybe have multitasking as a power instead of a component, it doesn't count toward the power limit and dicepool thresholds in and of itself, it merely ups the amount of powers that can be used before modifiers come in to play?

In terms of the numbers, I think the -10% option is the only one that really works, anything else I can think of is just as if not more complex. By sticking with decimal units it keeps the maths as simple as can be, and if you use a hero generator type thing to deliver payer characters then it will work it all out so even spackers are able to know how many dice they need to roll.

[Dog Pants]

The splitting the dice pool is something I wrote into my SLA house rules for dual weapons. I like it, it's simple and effective.

I think I understand Pete's point. An action become more complex when you're concentrating on something else. When you're trying to aim a rifle you suddenly become conscious of your breathing and you stop blinking. Try holding a conversation with the missus while you're playing Burnout Paradise and you'll see what I mean. On the other hand, compare a learner driver trying to negotiate an empty road, tongue out and concentrating on every limb at the same time, with a London taxi driver weaving through heavy traffic while telling you about his piles. The higher your skill, the less likely you are to be distracted by other things. So in the example of walking while firing, an untrained firer would probably be at risk of shooting themselves, while a veteran hitman could probably fire almost as accurately as he can standing. So I don't necessarily think the penalty should be uniform.

[Joose]

I'm going to have to be awkward (as usual) and point out that to me effortless pretty much means as easy as breathing, an almost subconscious action. As such that term to me would apply to something that can be done at any time even if a complex action is also being carried out, unless there are circumstances that mean it's no longer something someone can do without devoting active brain power to it.

Effortless *does* mean as easy as breathing, near enough. It represents things that, under normal circumstances, require basically no effort/brain power to achieve. Complex in this sense isn't just "pretty difficult", its stuff so brain fuckingly hard that it requires total concentration.

I would go for 'effortless' be usable with complex actions but it can be attacked to turn them from 'effortless' to 'almost effortless' thus nullifying their use with other complex powers. And almost effortless is where the in between effortless and normal comes in that you were looking for. And a damage track for the character would have a threshold to show when effortless becomes almost effortless and these powers and any that are tagged as complex can no longer be used together.

Yeah, no. I was considering something along the lines of the first bit, but I want to keep it as simple as I can. Its already got the potential for some damn confusing situations, and making things like "This action is normally effortless, unless X happens in which case it isn't but only when being used alongside complex powers if you are being attacked and its a sunday except for months that have more than 30 days..." is just making it more complicated for the sake of complication. Things already get harder for you as you take more damage (you take dice pool modifiers at certain damage thresholds), so changing what kind of actions you can do simultaneously at different damage levels as well is more than I want people to worry about.

Maybe have multitasking as a power instead of a component, it doesn't count toward the power limit and dicepool thresholds in and of itself, it merely ups the amount of powers that can be used before modifiers come in to play?

Why would that be better? I mean, powers are just collections of components anyway, so you could have a power that was just multitasking by itself, and by having multitasking as a component you can use it in conjunction with other effects (A power that can grant multitasking to other people, a power that means you can only multitask at night, a power that gives you multitasking if you are down to half health etc).

In terms of the numbers, I think the -10% option is the only one that really works, anything else I can think of is just as if not more complex. By sticking with decimal units it keeps the maths as simple as can be, and if you use a hero generator type thing to deliver payer characters then it will work it all out so even spackers are able to know how many dice they need to roll.

I think you are probably right with this bit. After spending hours pouring over the rules and tweaking things here and there I'm finding it kind of hard to work out what maths bits are going to be an arse to do in combat time. I'll go with this and see how it works in playtesting, I can always look at it again if it takes too much time.

I think I understand Pete's point. An action become more complex when you're concentrating on something else. When you're trying to aim a rifle you suddenly become conscious of your breathing and you stop blinking. Try holding a conversation with the missus while you're playing Burnout Paradise and you'll see what I mean. On the other hand, compare a learner driver trying to negotiate an empty road, tongue out and concentrating on every limb at the same time, with a London taxi driver weaving through heavy traffic while telling you about his piles. The higher your skill, the less likely you are to be distracted by other things. So in the example of walking while firing, an untrained firer would probably be at risk of shooting themselves, while a veteran hitman could probably fire almost as accurately as he can standing. So I don't necessarily think the penalty should be uniform.

I think thats covered by the dice pools themselves. Taking your driving example: The learner would have a small dice pool in the first place, so halving it by taking another action would make it tiny and therefore much more likely to go wrong. It might even go to 0 dice, as the pools are rounded down. The taxi driver on the other hand would have a much bigger driving dice pool, so cutting it in half would be no big deal, he would still have enough dice to do even fairly complex things. He might still want to drop the second action if something bad happened, like a real taxi driver might stop talking and concentrate on driving if someone almost crashes into him.

Dont forget also the flexability you get from being able to add components to powers. You could go from the untrained firer shooting himself in the foot because he didnt stand still to the veteran hitman moving and shooting by spending some experience points on adding the simple action component to your "Shoot Gun" power.

[Joose]

I'm conscious that a lot of the time I seem to be just saying no to suggestions. Please don't let that put you off; a lot of the time even when I don't agree 100% I'll take some bit of it into the design, and even when I don't do that it's useful if only because it helps me decide if I was right in the first place!

[Dog Pants]

I'm not offended by rebuffs of my suggestions, that's what discourse is about and if it helps galvanise decisions you've already made then that's as constructive as creating new ones.

[HereComesPete]

Fuck you, you dog faced cupcake!

But really

I'm not offended by rebuffs of my suggestions, that's what discourse is about and if it helps galvanise decisions you've already made then that's as constructive as creating new ones.

This

Although I think it might help provide more focussed suggestions that don't cover already walked ground if you give me a look at everything you've built.

Also, what happened to Fulcrum Joose.

[Joose]

Although I think it might help provide more focussed suggestions that don't cover already walked ground if you give me a look at everything you've built.

Soon. Like, end of this week, maybe next week soon.

Also, what happened to Fulcrum Joose.

Still jotting notes for that, but:

a) after playing Eclipse Phase I have ditched most of the rules stuff I had for Fulcrum in favour of a percentage system. Its a lovely balance between realism and simplicity. If it scaled better, I would be using it for Powers too.

b) If I write more stuff for Fulcrum, I write less stuff for Powers. Powers is closer to being a finished thing (or at least the first version of a finished thing), so im concentrating on that at the moment. Once Powers v1 is in the bag, I will take a break from it for Fulcrum. Powers is heavily rules biased, whereas Fulcrum is far more focussed on setting, so it will be a nice change of pace.

Dont worry though, very much not forgotten!

[Joose]

NERTZ.

I was getting all excited that the new version would be ready to release in the next couple of days (just need to tidy up a couple of components and its ready) when I noticed a fairly big problem with the Tier system for the dice. How the hell do you work out damage from them?

For example, lets say I hit you with something that has 10 tier 3 dice. You go up a Tier every 30 dice. You roll your 10 dice and get three hits.

How much damage do you do?

Ive written the damn system, and it still took me a bit of thinking to work it out. Stricktly speaking, in this example, although you are rolling only 10 dice they represent a total of 70 dice (30 to get to tier 2, 30 to get to tier 3 and then 10 dice). This means that each dice represents a 7 damage, so if you roll 3 hits you have done 21 damage. Its not exactly advanced calculus, but its complicated enough to bog down combat. If you dont believe me, here is a more complex situation:

You have 17 Tier 23 dice and roll 9 hits. If you can look at that and come back with how much damage is done in under 5 seconds, its too complicated. I cant.

Theres two possible solutions I can think of:

1) have a note on the character sheet for any power that does damage saying how much damage the dice are worth individually. Its not a complicated sum, as long as you dont have to do it every single time you use a power. (For those interested, to work out the damage per die you multiply the Tier by 30, add that to the number of dice, and then divide the result by the number of dice. I think. Please correct me if im wrong, my maths knowledge is creaky at best.)

2) make hit points Tiered, so one Tier 2 die does 1 point of Tier 2 damage. I dont like this option, as it creates what they call in Shadowrun the "tink tink BOOM" effect: you do no damage at all at one tier, then raise your damage by a single point putting you up to the next tier and are suddenly doing the equivalent of 30 damage. For example: I have 1 Tier 2 Hp and you can do 29 Tier 1 damage: you cant hurt me, at all, ever. Get one more damage die to throw and you can instakill me. Its easier maths, but its messy, wierd, and not actually that much conceptually simpler.

Needless to say, im leaning towards option 1. It moves all the maths out into character creation/development, which is mathy as fuck already so it doesnt really matter. Any arguments against that or, even better, a superior third option?

[deject]

You could side-step this problem entirely by having damage ratings as a statistic of a power and have that independent of the dice roll, or maybe just have the dice roll as a +/- modifier at most.

[Joose]

You could side-step this problem entirely by having damage ratings as a statistic of a power and have that independent of the dice roll, or maybe just have the dice roll as a +/- modifier at most.

Certainly an option, but I'd like to avoid that if possible. It would take a lot of rules rewriting to do that at this point, as it would have a bunch of knock on effects.

[Dog Pants]

I'm scared by the phrase 'only ten dice'.

[Joose]

I'm scared by the phrase 'only ten dice'.

Dont panic, its "only ten dice" because of the Tier system. As in the stat in this case is actually 70, but because of the Tiers you roll "only ten dice" and they represent 70 dice. I don't mean that this is only ten and you would sometimes be rolling 60.