So, ID cards are back in the news again....

buzzmong · Post by **buzzmong** » March 6th, 2008, 18:12

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7280495.stm

Granted, the scheme seems to be less stupid as the inital compulsory scheme from the other year but christ o mighty, what have these people who're in power got against the general public?

While I carry ID with me in the form of my driving licence at all times, be fucked if I'm paying for an ID card to have my details on another government DB.

I've already got a dim view on this country as everything important seems to be so faceless, and this is just a step to being monitored in all aspects of your life, and just reeks of this countries slow progress towards a totalitarian government.

At least the whole gps trackers in the number plates suggested by the EU has gone quiet for now, but I suspect road pricing will launch back into the spotlight soon.

amblin · Post by **amblin** » March 6th, 2008, 18:39

Baliame · Post by **Baliame** » March 6th, 2008, 18:42

Come to Hungary, we might occasionally have revolutions, civil wars and gayloads of gypsies, but our government has shown no intention to set up Gestapo and KGB so far. Also, we have lots of pigs. And pigs are future bacon.

Mr. Johnson · Post by **Mr. Johnson** » March 6th, 2008, 18:53

we've had the system of plastic passports for a while now, but i've never seen it being used in any other way then the previous paper ones. i'm guessing it's just a way of preparing people for the future.

wait, this isn't about passports is it?

Baliame wrote:Come to Hungary, we might occasionally have revolutions, civil wars and gayloads of gypsies, but our government has shown no intention to set up Gestapo and KGB so far. Also, we have lots of pigs. And pigs are future bacon.

i guess the guns are cheaper too?

Baliame · Post by **Baliame** » March 6th, 2008, 19:08

We have pure Hungarian gun factories ("Keserű Művek") which manufactures guns, indeed those are cheaper a bit, but imported guns are rather expensive. Also we have lame gun laws. For example, you may only own air guns of 7.5 J or less energy, above that you have to obtain an airgun license. Which is fucking impossible since the police and everyone else who is remotely connected to guns are retarded. Oh, and I think laws disallow owning shotguns, no exceptions.

amblin · Post by **amblin** » March 6th, 2008, 19:11

Baliame · Post by **Baliame** » March 6th, 2008, 19:17

amblin wrote:Hehe, if you can promise me at least half a dozen attractive blond females aged 16 to 25, I can be in Hungary by midnight.

6? Piece of cake, I have that many in my class.

friznit · Post by **friznit** » March 6th, 2008, 19:23

I've been carrying an MOD ID card for the last 8 years, and I had a student ID for 10 years before that. They were both really very useful and I miss having one now I'm a civilian again.

Credit companies, super markets, the police, BT, all banks, and my dog are much more efficient at tracking everything I do in my life compared to the civil service who couldn't find their own arse with both hands, so I'm not really worried.

spoodie · Post by **spoodie** » March 6th, 2008, 19:42

At least if you don't like the scheme you can opt-out and become a Freeman, if I'm understanding it right. The AntiTerrorist has made some very interesting videos and sends out even more to those on his friends list. Well worth checking out if you want a glimpse of the wiring under the boards.

Personally I think all this stinks of police state mentality.

Post by **Joose** » March 6th, 2008, 19:44

friznit wrote:I've been carrying an MOD ID card for the last 8 years, and I had a student ID for 10 years before that. They were both really very useful and I miss having one now I'm a civilian again.

Credit companies, super markets, the police, BT, all banks, and my dog are much more efficient at tracking everything I do in my life compared to the civil service who couldn't find their own arse with both hands, so I'm not really worried.

I think the "OMG ID cards will lead to THE END OF FREEDOM" is alarmist claptrap, and would fully welcome a government ID card system, if it were done properly. Of course, if it were done properly (for me at least) it would be some catch all ID thing that would store everything ID-wise, and would cover all kinds of licences and ID that I would need. Clearly, this is not going to be that, which irritates me slightly.

When it was going to be a compulsory thing that would also cost a fair amount of money, *then* I had a problem with it. As an optional thing, but one that doesnt look like it would be much use, I am considerably more meh about it.

spoodie · Post by **spoodie** » March 6th, 2008, 19:52

Joose wrote:I think the "OMG ID cards will lead to THE END OF FREEDOM" is alarmist claptrap

It really depends how much you trust your government and leaders. Any additional power (and this will grant power) you allow the authorities over you, the more freedoms you lose.

Post by **Joose** » March 6th, 2008, 20:01

spoodie wrote:and this will grant power

How, exactly? This is the point that I've never had explained to me. Even if the goverment gave us bloody locator chips under the skin, how would that *actually* give them more power? So, they will know a little more about us, biometrics and such. Other than making it easier to identify criminals and suchlike, how *exactly* will it cause me, personally, to have less freedom? Specifically.

amblin · Post by **amblin** » March 6th, 2008, 20:04

amblin · Post by **amblin** » March 6th, 2008, 20:09

buzzmong · Post by **buzzmong** » March 6th, 2008, 20:20

Joose wrote:
How, exactly? This is the point that I've never had explained to me. Even if the goverment gave us bloody locator chips under the skin, how would that *actually* give them more power? So, they will know a little more about us, biometrics and such. Other than making it easier to identify criminals and suchlike, how *exactly* will it cause me, personally, to have less freedom? Specifically.

In the bill there were new Police powers, they can spot check anyone for the card, lack it and you'll be facing jail. Now I don't know if it's applicable under this new iteration, but by the looks of it, it'll become compulsory eventually, which is fucking scary.

I feel I shouldn't have to carry a piece of plastic relating to a government controlled DB (who knows what they'll do with it, commerical companies will probably get access, so will all the government services, which means pretty much anyone can), just to prove I'm me to satisfy some pen-pushers when I'm born and bred in the UK.
I do like the idea of it for foreign nationals, it probably will help crack down on illegals.

And what happens if the details are wrong? How are you going to prove that you're you when the definitive DB (don't kid yourself, it will become the definitive list of the population) says you arn't you?

All of that aside, Amblin summed it up best regarding the fact the government are meant to lead and support the public, not supervise and control them.

The whole argument that it'll stop terrorism is pish anyway, 7/7 was commited by nationals, and anyone serious about terrorism and sneaked into the country will stay underground, use false ID, and not give two shits.

Edit: Doh, Amblin beat me to it regarding the Police.

Bonus edit, presented in quote form:

People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people

Post by **Dog Pants** » March 6th, 2008, 20:22

I'm against all this shite. I don't care particularly what the government know about me because, as Friz said, half a dozen stoned monkeys would have more chance of piecing together any useful information about me. However, as we've all seen, they're also fucking awful at following their own data security systems. Now a talented amateur with all my information is somethig I'd be considerable more worried about, and I don't trust the government to be able to keep that secret.

After that, there's the matter of them actually getting the right information, because that's something easily fucked up by them too. You can bet that if my ID says I'm female then nothing short of sticking my cock in their collective ears would convince them otherwise. Probably not even that. And if there's a problem does that mean I don't get access to things like NHS treatment? If I still do, then what's the point in having them?

Finally, this will cost money. Not just to print the cards, but in administration and the various other financial vacuums that make up government spending. It costs them millions of pounds just to rename a department, so how much of my tax money will this piss up the wall?

I'll be telling them to ram it thanks.

Post by **Roman Totale** » March 6th, 2008, 20:23

Until they start using identity cards to re-write history, propagate propaganda and control peoples actions, I don't think it can be called Orwellian totalitarianism.

I agree with Joose. I really don't see see what major adverse effects this could have on people. Policemen have the powers of stop and search right now - try telling some street bobby you're not giving him your name and address if he stops you for questioning. On that point, how often are people expecting to get stopped by the police anyway?

I agree it's a pain to have to pay for them - but then so is council tax, renewing passports, car tax and every other bill I've got to pay.

Mr. Johnson · Post by **Mr. Johnson** » March 6th, 2008, 20:32

spoodie wrote: It really depends how much you trust your government and leaders. Any additional power (and this will grant power) you allow the authorities over you, the more freedoms you lose.

spoodie · Post by **spoodie** » March 6th, 2008, 20:49

Mr. Johnson wrote:

Gordon Brown has lost weight.

Roman Totale wrote:Policemen have the powers of stop and search right now

So why do they need more powers to harass and oppress the general public? What are the advantages for the man on the street? This is who the Government and Police are working for, what's in it for us? Ignoring this imaginary War on Terror for the moment.

Joose wrote:How, exactly? ... Other than making it easier to identify criminals and suchlike, how *exactly* will it cause me, personally, to have less freedom? Specifically.

I'll have to investigate and think about this one. My personal mission against the oppressors has only started recently and specifics are hard to come by, especially for a situation that doesn't actually exist yet.

Mr. Johnson · Post by **Mr. Johnson** » March 6th, 2008, 20:53

this thread suddenly reminds me that we don't even have a government at the moment.