5punk

deject wrote:
It's actually NAND, but yeah they build other logic gates from NAND. Mostly because that means they can just mass produce only NAND gates and use those to make more complex ones.

that^

requires lots of splitting and looping though

Dog Pants wrote:That's actually simpler than real logic IIRC, since transistors are basically AND gates and all other logic is constructed from them. Or something like that, it's been a while. Buzz, that right?

My point is that the placement of the torches is relevant, whether they're on top of the block, the side or on no block. It changes the result. It's similar with the redstone wire. But if that's obvious to you then great, go make the mechanism I described earlier without referring back to that video.

Also the wiring can bug. I had a simple test light switch which wouldn't work. Rebuilding it in exactly the same way fixed it. Complex mechanisms could be a nightmare.

The redstone torches seem more analagous to diodes. A transistor is basically two diodes anyway, but you can construct logic gates with just diodes:

OR


AND


It should be possible to build anything, but since modern VLSICs like CPUs have millions of transistors inside them, could keep you busy for a while.

This is an early clock, built from TTL ICs, each of which would probably have the equivalent of 4 NAND gates inside them:

spoodie wrote: My point is that the placement of the torches is relevant, whether they're on top of the block, the side or on no block. It changes the result. It's similar with the redstone wire. But if that's obvious to you then great, go make the mechanism I described earlier without referring back to that video.

Sorry, I didn't mean to downplay it. It's still impressive and I certainly wouldn't have the inclination to work it out myself (I've not even used the redstone yet, since I couldn't see any use for it other than showing off logic gates on Youtube).

It's quite an impressive system which could be used pretty effectively in teaching logic circuits.

Since every redstone torch is not just like a diode, but a light-emitting diode, you can see what state the logic is in at every part of your circuit without (as in a real circuit) having to test every junction with a multimeter.

I don't know if they bother teaching it anymore, but when I was at college we had to build one of these using TTL ICs. It's knowledge I've long-since forgotten, but there was a method whereby you could convert that truth table into the logic gates required to produce the correct output.

It is very similar to electronic circuit construction. While the torches may be like diodes, I think the actual operation is certainly more like symbolic notation for logic gates, namely due to lack of ground and +ve in Minecrack. It's a tad more abstract than diode logic.

The AND gate was obvious from the outset. I expect with a quick reference crib sheet for redstone torch placement you could built circuits rather quickly and much more easily than in Dorfs (although that water and lava based computer was impressive).

If Notch implements some way of making a clock circuit then I'd expect someone to go off and build a 4-bit CPU, that shouldn't take too long if you've got the knowledge to do it in the first place.

FJ: Funny you should mention the truth table to logic gates conversion, I actually read a page that touched on that the other day when looking up some basic stuff to build a clock (I ended up getting side tracked and reading about creating adders with BCD: it's somewhere around this article http://www.play-hookey.com/digital/adder.html).

I really do need to swat back up on my electronics. Might see if there's an evening class at a local college so I've got some guidance.

I think the abstraction of circuitry is a help to me. I found it hard to grasp the concepts at school and I don't fully understand all the above. Plus the visual feedback which FJ mentioned, with the torches and wires lighting up, makes diagnosis relatively simple. Once you understand how to make the various gates it's enjoyable puzzling through the logic of what you want to happen.

And you can make things that are sort of useful in single player. Making doors which monsters can't possibly open by accident being one example. Also if you had a physical trap which funnels the drops of dead monsters to a collection point you could setup a pressure plate, which turns on a torch to let you know that there's goodies to collect. Of course in multiplayer you can make all sorts of things for other player to interactive with. Like this evil combination lock trap:

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZadahvARzA[/media]

Have discovered that laying railtrack (not sure if the speed you lay it at matters) will cause the game to go into meltdown. It seems to do this after 50 pieces of track, I've been doing it with many lava spawns around and it's not in the direction the track goes down so I don't know if that's a factor but it means you have to relog. Once you're back in it's all fine again (until you repeat what you've done )

Right, update tiem!
It seems if you spawn only one lot of track at a time (well, single batch of 64) and use all of them it's fine, you need to wander off for about 10-15 seconds before spawning anything else or it will get in a huff. If you wait the 10 odd seconds and then spawn stuff it appears to be quite happy

buzzmong wrote:FJ: Funny you should mention the truth table to logic gates conversion, I actually read a page that touched on that the other day when looking up some basic stuff to build a clock (I ended up getting side tracked and reading about creating adders with BCD: it's somewhere around this article http://www.play-hookey.com/digital/adder.html).

Boolean algebra, I remember now. Also http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_4/chpt_7/9.html shows some converting from truth-table methods, basically you add all the possible combos together, then use the boolean algebra rules to simplify the resulting expression.

Interesting and possibly helpful fact I've discovered:

Ladders are to water what torches are to sand/gravel, ie: they'll stop it going past.

Quite handy as it stopped me flooding a tunnel network when I accidently opened it to the sea.

I wondered what those ladders were doing down there.

Another feature I've found with ladders is that they actively repel water. Put them in a water filled square and watch the water vanish.

Interesting words!

Notch speaks to Valve and Bungie.

This is weird for me. A smalltime indie game that I've been following clashing with the kind of news I read in PCG. If I was Notch I'd be in a state of perpetual ejaculation.

Well, if anyone is going to let him do his own thing, obviously Valve are. They've already mentioned it on the Team Fortress blog after all.

It would also be an awesome game to have on steam as it fills the gap between a game for casual gamers and more normal games.

I suspect the Bungie thing is just a "hi, we're big fans" type thing. They're not exactly in a position to do anything.

do bungie even do pc games?

shot2bits wrote:do bungie even do pc games?

Not recently, but they know a lot about multiplayer gaming. Also Minecraft would probably make a good console download once it's more of a rounded game.

I've put up a server with the new software and new map at:

94.168.89.232 (Monsters: Active)

I've guessed some user names and op'd people. If you can use the /help command you are op'd. Ops can add more ops.

I probably wont be on much as I've got a busy day but I'll definitely be on tomorrow.

I've made a large box, a crafting table thing, and a sign welcoming you to the server.

Somehow, the fact that storage and suchlike works properly now makes even simple things seem much more of an achievement.

The suns gone in. I know its got monsters active, did I read somewhere about them being indestructible, or am I making that up?

Its dark. I'm scared. I'm logging off.

EDIT: I also had a nice chat to God. He seems nice.

And now ive made a small mud hut.

Things ive noticed:

Monsters are only sort of in. No baddies spawn at night, the caves are near empty, and you cant kill the livestock that wanders about. I did stumble on a little dungeon, which has a couple of zombies in, but all they do is stand there impassively.

The furnaces work, but are a little quirky. I put one coal and some sand in, and when I closed the window, the fire animation went out. I opened it up, and it was empty. Closed it and opened it again, and it was back to merrily making glass again. Weird.

Doors can be a bit funny. Sometimes the top opens and the bottom doesn't.

Other than that, it seems to be a lot closer to working than it was before. Rejoice!