5punkorp Cap Fleet Discussion

Dolly Parton · Post by **Dolly Parton** » February 26th, 2007, 21:45

Miro Mishu wrote:I understand your concern Dolly, but isn't our current capital ship in the "B" catagory? What would make this any different (other then ISSN giving the carrier to us to start with)?

Capital ships are investments, plain and simple. You can't look at it as taking a fleet fitted BS out for a spin. There is very little use to a single pilot for a capital ship (Motherships perhaps being an exception). Now i'm not saying i'm worthy of having a corp funded or a corp contributed capital ship, i'm just saying that funding a ship that would be used almost exclusivly for corp activities out of my own pocket is awfully altruistic and.. somewhat silly.

Now, I *want* to get a ship to help the corp. And if nothing else comes out of this discussion, I will get the ship because I want to. (Just like the 2bil of BPO's that I invested in as well as the 1.2bil i've put into the Raven BPO).

fine if your going to spend the isk on a capital ship cool. all power to you but I just don't feel like putting 100mil in isk or more into something that will do nothing but help a person out here and there and mainly for the goal of one persons enjoyment. i got more but late for school. we'll debate later

Miro Mishu · Post by **Miro Mishu** » February 26th, 2007, 21:51

*2nd edit*

Somthing to think about while you're at at school:

You think Fea likes and looks forward to jump hauling? I can't speak for him but i'm sure it gets old. But it's somthing he has to do alone cause noone else can ease his burden.

If I was asking for uber T2 pvp ship, for corp purposes, you would be right Dolly. It would be used to my enjoyment and wouldn't cost as much, and would be able to be lost a lot easier.

Let's scale this conversation up.. Titans. Do you think the person who is flying the titan is doing so for personal enjoyment? I hope you don't.. They fly it as they are the person picked/chosen/fell into it for their alliance to put it to use for their alliance.

In the end there has to be a single player piloting the ship. Wether it's a frig for tackling or a Command ship for FC'ing or carrier or DN for capital ship operations, there has to be a single pilot behind the wheel of the ship. Believe me, big booms are nice to put on your bio, but ppl don't fly DN's for the big booms. They doit for their Alliance.. and for that there is no debate.

Again, I never said i'm the only person for the job, but i'll be capable in a little over a month and the corp keeps saying it would like more capital pilots.. the corp has to decide where they wanna go, and what level they are ready to participate at. You can buy a *lot* of t2 ships for the cost of a capital. As a whole we have to decide if having 10 HACs/t2 fitted BS's would be better for the corp then a capital ship. Both help, in different and distinct ways.

Dolly Parton · Post by **Dolly Parton** » February 27th, 2007, 2:44

edited

centerededgedesign · Post by **centerededgedesign** » February 27th, 2007, 2:48

Miro Mishu wrote:
In the end there has to be a single player piloting the ship. Wether it's a frig for tackling or a Command ship for FC'ing or carrier or DN for capital ship operations, there has to be a single pilot behind the wheel of the ship. Believe me, big booms are nice to put on your bio, but ppl don't fly DN's for the big booms. They doit for their Alliance.. and for that there is no debate.

Again, I never said i'm the only person for the job, but i'll be capable in a little over a month and the corp keeps saying it would like more capital pilots.. the corp has to decide where they wanna go, and what level they are ready to participate at. You can buy a *lot* of t2 ships for the cost of a capital. As a whole we have to decide if having 10 HACs/t2 fitted BS's would be better for the corp then a capital ship. Both help, in different and distinct ways.

Yus, the corp has to decide where it wants to go. Unfortunately, the corp will also be at a pretty critical crossroads soon, dependant on the outcome of something quite a bit larger than we are ----> The War. Should ISS fall, it will almost certainly be fatally. The corps supporting it thus far have been battle tested, surivived once, but the support/turnout seems to be in decline. I fear that ISS regrouping should a loss occur may not be a practical prediction, although I know nothing of what happens behind closed doors.

As far as Capitals, it really does depend on what we do next. If we end up sticking to pvp and harassing IAC, I see us as needing two carriers, and up to 4 dreads. Let me explain:

We begin operations against an objective using cov ops and BS's. We test the security of a system housing an enemy POS. If we find the security lacking in support, and thus to our liking, we can probe a bit further. Should we determine a pos a possible target, we jump in a Dread and 'ping' it a bit to see if our foe will react. When they react, we determine where the defenses come from, take notes, and leave. If the defences are minimal, we make plans, and leave. Then the true op occurs. We jump in with six guns ablazing, tacklers/carriers/dictors/BS's/Dreads and lock and load the system hard, camping the gates and popping a pos with multiple dreads dealing lots of damage quick. No all-day sieging that an enemy can muster a call to arms about, but a surgical strike that opens a tiny incision and inserts a nuke. Mission accomplished, we leave. If we discover earlier that all the rats run from a specific system that is a more valuable target, we conduct a feint manuever, draw them out of said system, and jump into that instead and lock it in the same manner. If we rehearse it well, I have no doubt that we'll find people to help support us.

Will this be easy? HELL NO! Will it be awesome? Oh Baaaby yeah! Is it practical for the 5punk today? Maybe not quite, but a goal is something we love to work toward, up to mining until our noses bleed from banging them on the keyboard when we pass out. We're 5punky like that. We also have time to plan, as that many pilots to that level will take time on the skill side alone. That, and we're not quite to the juncture where we'll be making that decision yet. BUT, bear in mind some of the following points.....

Alts start out with usable skills now. It's totally possible to have an alt wing in Moarty (or another front corp) do our scouting work, up until the point that they start to look for us when we come poking. Then we hit them with a wing from another corp, until we're ready for 5punk corp surgical strike mode.

We have many capable ore mining beasts, and can recruit/train more. 5punk could do very well on commercial operations simply by supplying what is needed in level 4 agent systems. Fw4ppers is making money selliing big ammo in Tidacha, a level 4 agent home that is poorly supplied. I'm sure Dolly could tell us what is needed for sale at his agent's home bases. So making some money for capitals/bpo's/ships in general won't be impossible if we plan it out. There's a ton of revenue streams in Eve, we could become very rich if we each bought a time code and sold it for isk each month. And that wouldn't involve hours of mining or hauling. (although buy orders and manufacturing could make us money as well, and have those with standings do the sell orders to maximize incomes)

5punk is alive. We grow/adapt/change. The surgical strike may not be for us. The capital hauling wing might. Being able to jump in 2 carriers/5 dreads, drop a large POS and tons of fuel, and bring in BS's and support ships all in a weekend's work? That's awesome! I could so easily see 5punk pulling an op like that off. (ofc keeping a pos somewhere only as long as needed, pos forests are for the birds!)

Should ISS survive this war, would it have use for a corp that could pull this off? Oh Yeah! As I see it, ISS REALLLYYY needs a unit that does this work, perhaps in a mercenary/not-directly-attached way. With the multiple corp's available to move people around in as needed though, I think we could easily avoid being war dec'd infinitely.

Back to what this post started on though, it has to be in line with what the corp wants. If we want to become Eve's biggest seller in raw veld ore, DN's/Carriers/Motherships/Titans ain't for us. If we want to bring the POS stomping hurt to our enemies and be able to jump in massive amounts of stuff on a whim, capitals are a must.

A suggestion for CCP though, Dreadnaught support mods for a POS. So friendly DN's could park outside a pos, get shield/armor rep from the pos, and pound on sieging DN's with comparable dps. That or POS NOS.....

I've seen 5punk come a long way in my year here. As Fea said, as long as there's an Eve, there will be 5punk in it! Eve's going to be around for awhile, what's 5punk going to do while we're here?

Dolly Parton · Post by **Dolly Parton** » February 27th, 2007, 2:49

edited

Hehulk · Post by **Hehulk** » February 27th, 2007, 3:00

I think I've missed something here. Dolly, your earlier argument was seemingly based around the idea that 5punk is turning into a capital pilots only corp. Since I've seen no evidence of this, where are you comming from with it? As for helping fellow members into ships, you do much of the same work there with supplying us with cheap rigs. I can't see a difference.

Dolly Parton · Post by **Dolly Parton** » February 27th, 2007, 3:29

Hehulk wrote:I think I've missed something here. Dolly, your earlier argument was seemingly based around the idea that 5punk is turning into a capital pilots only corp. Since I've seen no evidence of this, where are you comming from with it? As for helping fellow members into ships, you do much of the same work there with supplying us with cheap rigs. I can't see a difference.

i said corp DOES go capital and everyone goes that route then its not for me. helping corp mates with rigs and such is no problem. i got no problem giving isk to people to me its not real money anyways that doesn't effect my roof over my head so i am very giving with my isk, which would explain why i never have a lot of it i guess. where I do have a problem is we're talking about dishing out a crap load of isk to one person for one ship. i just don't feel comfortable with that, no matter who it is.

honestly though if we do this, help out capital pilots, then i want to see numbers. how much they get? is it gift/loan? if it is gift then you got to do something for the other people or you are basically class typing and giving those people what they want. (CCP is doing that to EVE and its pissing me off but that is another thread). What about pilots who already have a capital ship and did on their own do they get a refund? does corp help with fittings too? lets even go one step further should the corp help out with insurance? these are just some of the questions i would like answers for before doing anything.

i see extra capital ship pilots would be nice to have around but do i think the corp should do it, no, not until those question i stated are answered.

Miro Mishu · Post by **Miro Mishu** » February 27th, 2007, 4:42

Let me ask another question.. What do we as a whole expect the corp to do with the money we make? Having isk does nothing if we don't use it to improve ourselves.

Not that i'm trying to attack you Dolly, but as you are the most vocal you will be the one i'm responding to. You seem to have a problem with the corp offering up their hard earned isk. What else do you expect the corp to do with it? You put up POS', make items on arrays and everything like that to make money, then you use the money to:

Buy pvp ships (non-capital)
Buy Capital Ships
Buy implants to fly said ships better.

That's it. The money not spent on the above is spent to replace and upgrade the above. There is nothing else in this game to spend isk on that doesn't come back around to the three things listed above.

That's what this game is all about. Having billions of isk in the wallet is great, however not having a plan to use the isk is just silly. That's where I believe we differ on points of view and opinion. I hope you can understand what i'm saying now.

I reiterate again, the corp needs to decide on how they want to proceed in the near future. I'm not trying to beat a horse beyond death here, nor did I expect to get this in-depth on the topic so quickly however since we started the ball rolling i'm making the best of it.

-Miro

Miro Mishu · Post by **Miro Mishu** » February 27th, 2007, 4:53

Dolly Parton wrote:
i know fea doesn't like to do it all the time but he is the linch pin to our corp 0.0 movings.

One more reason to have more capitals in corp.

Dolly Parton wrote:
now i know of another corp pilot that is a head of you in training aspects for a carrier but doesn't have one. I also recruited a person who actually has a carrier (he paid for that I am helping get fittings and fighters for) and he is training the jump hauling skills to help out.

One thing I learned early on was that if you don't ask for somthing don't ever expect to get it. If these pilots don't want help that's fine, but if they hope/expect help they have to ask. And what's the worst that happens? They end up in the same boat as where they were initally. Also let me remind you that I said I might not be the man for the job, i'm just looking for somthing more concrete.

Dolly Parton wrote: i just don't think its something the corp should do unless we get into that area of production. maybe the corp could give a loan but to be given 500mil for a DN that 1 pilot is going to use then I still say no.

What does us going into capital production have to do with anything other then simply the cost involved. I don't see a corrilation. As for a loan? Perhaps, but it's somthing that has to be discussed.

Dolly Parton wrote: If the corp does go to an all capital ship corp i will have to say its been fun but I am gonna go. capital ships is not my thing and not going to go there just to be in with the corp either if that is goal.

This is a part that worries me actually. If people in the corp get capital ships you're gonna leave? You can still fly HACs and BS's and such if you're so inclined. You are your own pilot. A Corp isn't 'Cap' or 'Not Cap'. A corp is 'Cap capable' or 'Not cap capable'. There is a huge difference.

Anyhow, thats it for now.

-Miro

Anhamgrimmar · Post by **Anhamgrimmar** » February 27th, 2007, 5:04

i think it'd all be worthwhile if everyone got to the point where they can train for cap ships*, and then if they/the corp wants, take the big steps up to dread/carrier/mothership/' the mysterious ORE cap ship thats comming soonTM).

*by ready to train, i mean training every skill that doesnt cost a firtune i e all the low level skill reqs (large guns/missiles 5 etc) the other problem is awkward buggers like me who'd rather fly sommat other than caldari, which also stymies the whole corp ship issue (same with the whole haulers thing, i was buggered until some minnie haulers appeared in jk-

Dolly Parton · Post by **Dolly Parton** » February 27th, 2007, 5:06

i wasn't attacking your miro and i am sorry if i was interpreted that way. i'll remove the post after i post this one but the words are still true in what i said. lets say for by some chance the corp does go capital ship and lets say does a roving corp type thing, thats not my thing so at that point in time i would part ways as friends and one day if the corp or i changed ways i would see if the corp would welcome me back. now all that is hypothetical. like all this discussion is on capital ship funding. only thing i was trying to point out was things i didn't like in the idea and maybe someone else in the corp would have a solution or an idea you and i haven't thought of yet.

so once again i apologize if my remarks came off as an attack like tone. i was never at any time trying to ruffle your feathers.

DP

Miro Mishu · Post by **Miro Mishu** » February 27th, 2007, 5:35

I think discussions like this are healthy, fun, and generally productive. I wish others would be as vocal on their thoughts as you Dolly. I've always been a fan of vocal brainstorming. In doing so you see many different view points and you come out of it stronger. I hope this will be the case here.

-Miro

traveyb · Post by **traveyb** » February 27th, 2007, 8:49

BTW I can fit a rokh (biggest BS) in my dreads cargo hold with 8x t2 expanders (no rigs) :-)

Quinntarn · Post by **Quinntarn** » February 27th, 2007, 8:59

Dolly Parton wrote: so once again i apologize if my remarks came off as an attack like tone. i was never at any time trying to ruffle your feathers.

DP

Oh please by all means Dolly Ruffle his feathers!!!! he needs a good ruffling from time to time! And Miro is the type of person that does enjoy it!

Q's

bomberesque · Post by **bomberesque** » February 27th, 2007, 10:07

Bah, 6 months ago we were all squabbling about how to pay for BSs, now we don't bother any more, when we want one we just buy one.

I am miles away from a DN or Carrier and fully expect not to have a problem affording one once I get there. The corp can help or not and that help would be appreciated, but lack of it won't stop me getting one.

What's basic skills req for DN? BSv, adv spaceship thingy V, Cap guns, others?

Post by **fabyak** » February 27th, 2007, 10:10

Jump drive operation I (but ideally, V followed by Jump Drive calibration IV and Jump Fuel Conservation IV as well)

amblin · Post by **amblin** » February 27th, 2007, 10:19

amblin · Post by **amblin** » February 27th, 2007, 10:21

Post by **fabyak** » February 27th, 2007, 10:35

Rah! Tiem killing mode activate!

Training for: "Phoenix"

Space Ship Command Skills
Race Battleship - level 5/5
Advanced Space Ship Command - Level 5/5
Capital Ships - Level 0/3
Race Dreadnought - Level 0/4

Jump Drive Skills
Science - 5/5
Warp Drive Operation - 5/5
Jump Drive Operation - 5/5
Jump Drive Calibration - 4/4
Jump Fuel Conservation - 4/4

Armor/Shield Skills
Mechanic - 5/5
Hull Upgrades - 5/5
Armor Repair Systems - 3/5 ?
Capital Armor Repair Systems - 0/4
Shield Operation - 4/5
Tactical Shield Manipulation - 4/5
Capital Shield Operation - 0/4

Gunnary Skills
Advanced Weapon Upgrades - 1/5
Capital Weapon Type - 0/4
Tactical Weapon Reconfiguration - 0/4

ETA
Dreadnought (bare minimum) - Couple of hours to pilot (Need cap ships and dread)
Dreadnought (usefully trained) - Couple of months

Training for: "Chimera"

Space Ship Command Skills
Race Battleship - level 5/5
Advanced Space Ship Command - Level 5/5
Capital Ships - Level 0/3
Race Carrier - Level 0/4

Drone Skills
Advanced Drone Interfacing - 3/4
Drone Interfacing - 5/5
Fighters - 0/4

Jump Drive Skills
Science - 5/5
Warp Drive Operation - 5/5
Jump Drive Operation - 5/5
Jump Drive Calibration - 4/4
Jump Fuel Conservation - 4/4

Logistics Skills
Remote Armor Repair Systems - 3/5
Capital Remote Armor Repair Systems - 0/4
Energy ejaculation Systems - 2/5
Capital Energy ejaculation Systems - 0/4
Shield ejaculation Systems - 3/5
Capital Shield ejaculation Systems - 0/4

Armor/Shield Skills
Mechanic - 5/5
Hull Upgrades - 5/5
Armor Repair Systems - 4/5
Capital Armor Repair Systems - 0/4
Shield Operation - 4/5
Tactical Shield Manipulation - 4/5
Capital Shield Operation -0/4

Leadership Skills
Leadership - 5/5
Gang Assist type - 2's and 3's/5
Gang Assist Specialist - 3/4

ETA
Carrier (bare minimum) - today for jumping monkey
Carrier (usefully trained) - Couple of months

[edit] bah, silly 'merkins and their incorrect spelling of colour

Post by **fabyak** » February 27th, 2007, 10:43

Should we have a seperate thread for the cap ships thingy?