Griefing

[Chickenz]

I think it depends on the situation.

Self contained 5punk games where we wind each up in amusing ways is ok. Following Grim in teef and randomly bashing things as he does or tea bagging snipers in CoD4 is fine with me. As is pissing about with arsey randoms who don't listen to the cupcake when he occasionaly asks them politely.

Going out of your way to piss people off by doing something annoying after been asked to stop is griefing, whether you're on a 5punk server or not.

I've done it before and had it done to me so I know how annoying it is. I do it every now and again to randoms but only if they've pissed me off.

Griefing: Ok on our server if amusing. Not ok without a fucking good reason.

[FatherJack]

Just because you can do something, does not mean you should.

By griefing as the article terms it, we are talking about a deliberate action to ruin someone's game - and that's not really in order however funny it is.

By extension I guess that means that by persisting in any action which you know upsets another player - even if that is legitimately killing them in a normal fashion in accordance with the purpose of the game - then you are griefing. Stop being so mean, switch to your worst weapon and let them kill you a bit.

Don't know where I stand on stuff like revenge. On unpoliced MMORPGs, where there's nothing to stop people killing you at a critical point in a quest, or tricking you into attacking them it might seem justified to gang up on them until they leave the game. Thing is, there's always someone bigger in those games, so escalating the situation won't ultimately solve anything.

I don't really get the whole PvP thing I feel shit when I lose, and guilty when I win. And as for ganking: that people seem to get off on destroying someone with no chance against them just seems sick.

[Baliame]

I'm more of the griefer type and I'm proud of it. A good example, following FJ's MMONG example, in WoW, I never missed a chance to gank a low level. In this situation I believe two things are playing a part: 1) you're training them for life, once they get to high level, they will probably do the same thing. 2) on the other hand, when you were low level, they did it to you.

Griefing in other games, such as TF2 (Team Roomba?), is a bit different. First thing is that it's a lot harder to do so in such games, but if I find a fun way to do it, I go to some canadian french server I'll probably never visit ever again and have fun for a few round.

Bottom line is: I play my game in the way I want, I don't see griefing as an offense, just a good attempt at having fun. If it's being done to you or your team, it's really all about how you take it. I take it as a course of learning: "right, you might have fun fucking me over right now, but I just learned how to do it."

Strict rule is though, you do it out of the random, under a different name and obviously without a tag. No point annoying the shit out of people (although, I've probably already reached that by ever talking on TS... wait, that sound like griefing to me right there.) who you play with more than once in a millenia or getting them all over your gaming community.

For instance (cue flame wars) I don't find bunny-hopping and noob-tubing that irritating.

I don't believe that falls under griefing. It's more like "advanced tactics maneuvers for hiding that you're otherwise absolutely shit at the game" (see: me)

[HereComesPete]

I think my thoughts were mostly written down by buzz.

What we do generally doesn't ruin anyone's game (except chicken, he spawn camps and also plays really well the utter shit) unless they let it.

If we're all of in a corner giggling whilst taking it in turns to jump in a swimming bath, or crawl round a band stand stun grenading each other then that's fine imo. People who complain about us not taking it seriously or that we should be kicked because we're letting the other team win are letting it get to them and that reflects more on them than us. And if we are letting the other team win by not killing them then we can generally tilt the score back in our favour in a few minutes of sensible play.

I generally try and not get pissed off because all I want to do is play and joke about. But on occasion (mostly in beef) it winds me up to the point where I'll stop playing whilst screaming at my monitor. Thankfully 5punk self regulates quite well and don't behave in a cuntish manner unless people do it to us first.

I voted option 2.

[Dog Pants]

I don't believe that falls under griefing. It's more like "advanced tactics maneuvers for hiding that you're otherwise absolutely shit at the game" (see: me)

Again, I think it depends on why you do something. If you're using unpopular tactics because you're shit and need to even things up a bit then I don't think it's griefing particularly, because if you're shit you probably won't be annoying people that much by killing them all the time. Like chopper-whores in BEEF, crap ones aren't a problem but the really good ones can clear a server because they're no fun to play with.

As for ganking, I dunno. People don't have to play on a PvP server in most games.

[deject]

Again, I think it depends on why you do something. If you're using unpopular tactics because you're shit and need to even things up a bit then I don't think it's griefing particularly, because if you're shit you probably won't be annoying people that much by killing them all the time. Like chopper-whores in BEEF, crap ones aren't a problem but the really good ones can clear a server because they're no fun to play with.

Yeah I can agree with that. People who suck need all the help they can get, and I don't feel bad at all when someone with no skill kills me with some BS grenade launcher shot, but the people who pretty much just use the grenade launcher always even after playing the game for ages are stupid and suck.

[Roman Totale]

Hmph, everyone has pretty much covered everything I wanted to say.

CoH faaabulous Pride was in response to a homophobic comment directed at Tandino's rather "colourful" character. It didn't affect people's gameplay other than the ones who stopped to scream insults at us.

Capture the bath is no different to any other game of CoD - it's just the all the action tends to focus around one key object.

If changing your name in an FPS was a crime, then I'd be the biggest griefer in history. That said, I rarely change my name to mock some random on the server, rather it's changed to something that amuses me at the time and is generally unconnected to anything.

Shartak was an interesting one. In the early days we didn't particularly dick about - there were about 4 of us who just haunted the York med hut (how amusing, there is now a clan, well respected in game, who do exactly the same thing). Existing players decided, bizarrely, that we were zergs/trolls/griefers and waged a hate campaign against us. I got the hump and asked 5punkers to join up and start killing. This was, I suppose, griefing - but it was only in response to a bunch of dicks who harassed us for not playing by "their rules", i.e. we weren't part of the club.

[MORDETH LESTOK]

I got the hump and asked 5punkers to join up and start killing. This was, I suppose, griefing - but it was only in response to a bunch of dicks who harassed us for not playing by "their rules", i.e. we weren't part of the club.

Revenge = Revenge

[Grimmie]

By griefing as the article terms it, we are talking about a deliberate action to ruin someone's game - and that's not really in order however funny it is.

Surely that's a personal view though, I find some things funny that other people rage and scream about?

Following Grim in teef and randomly bashing things as he does

BASTARD.

[FatherJack]

By griefing as the article terms it, we are talking about a deliberate action to ruin someone's game - and that's not really in order however funny it is.

Surely that's a personal view though, I find some things funny that other people rage and scream about?

It is a personal view, but some things are unequivocal. Some people rage and scream over the slightest infraction of their abritrary "rule set" and deserve derision - but if you're in a place where there's a general consensus that doing X is wrong, you're not making friends by doing X repeatedly.

I suppose it's about degree - annoying someone once could be accidental, or merely a jest - doing it again and again when you know it upsets them to the point they don't want to play anymore isn't really acceptable in my view.

Maybe it's just me, but when someone is irked to the point that they actually come out and ask you not to keep doing something, then the line's been crossed. Depends who's doing the asking though, as I said some people flip over nothing, but if it's a generally reasonable request to even up a game, I try to abide by it.

[Joose]

if you're in a place where there's a general consensus that doing X is wrong, you're not making friends by doing X repeatedly.

^this.

If what you are doing is annoying one guy out of a server of a dozen guys, then that guy is being a prick. If what you are doing is annoying a server of a dozen guys, then you are being a prick.

Basically, in my view, the only, *only* time griefing could be ok is when someone else is ruining everyone else's fun, so you are ruining theirs. They pretty much have it coming to them then. If you are griefing innocent people just for teh lulz, thats bad.

And just to be clear, I think of griefing as doing something that annoys people whilst knowing it annoys them, primarily because it annoys them. Doing something thats technically in the rules, but is annoying people, but you are not doing it *because* it annoys people: that I don't think of as griefing. Its just being a prick.

[Dr. kitteny berk]

^this.

If what you are doing is annoying one guy out of a server of a dozen guys, then that guy is being a prick. If what you are doing is annoying a server of a dozen guys, then you are being a prick.

Basically, in my view, the only, *only* time griefing could be ok is when someone else is ruining everyone else's fun, so you are ruining theirs. They pretty much have it coming to them then. If you are griefing innocent people just for teh lulz, thats bad.

And just to be clear, I think of griefing as doing something that annoys people whilst knowing it annoys them, primarily because it annoys them. Doing something thats technically in the rules, but is annoying people, but you are not doing it *because* it annoys people: that I don't think of as griefing. Its just being a prick.

is exactly right.

[Baliame]

I find some things funny that other people rage and scream about?

I find it funny when certain people rage and scream. Right Chickenz?

[Chickenz]

You are you great goat rapist. Here's five quid to go and get another one when your finished:

[Dog Pants]

[Gunslinger42]

It depends on the griefing. There's people like myg0t who go out of their way to shut down servers or make the game entirely unplayable or unenjoyable for others, but then there's stuff like just mocking people (like the name changes in CSS/CoD, silly text chat replies, using a weapon you know makes other people cry, etc). The latter only ruins the game for you <i>if you let it</i>, while you can't ignore stuff like cheaters or server crashers.

[Gunslinger42]

and I must admit I do my fair share of griefing in games like TF2, most of the time it's passive stuff though, just me being a mong for my own amusement rather than deliberately setting out to ruin other peoples fun.

Heavy civilian - gliding towards an enemy with your arms straight down at your sides, asking for a dispenser or calling everyone a spy
Spy crabwalk - I can't even see where I'm walking like this, completely pointless
Ubering spies or snipers
Building a teleporter exit right on the very edge of that big hole in tc_hydro, people who immediately run forward after being teleported without looking first are in for a surprise
Teleporter trap - building the entrance on top of the exit, so they get stuck in it
Playing silly songs over HLSS. I tend not to do this much since I consider it to be the most dickish thing of all, but sometimes I can't resist and it only takes two clicks for them to mute me.
Oh and I guess the classic "F10" response for "how do I do x".

Then again I've had just as many people laugh when I've done this stuff as I have people rage

[Joose]

It depends on the griefing. There's people like myg0t who go out of their way to shut down servers or make the game entirely unplayable or unenjoyable for others, but then there's stuff like just mocking people (like the name changes in CSS/CoD, silly text chat replies, using a weapon you know makes other people cry, etc). The latter only ruins the game for you <i>if you let it</i>, while you can't ignore stuff like cheaters or server crashers.

See, I don't see silly chat replies and name changes as being anything like using weapons you know makes other people cry. The first two have absolutely no affect on the *actual game*. The last one does.

But either way, spoiling someones fun by doing something you know will spoil their fun when they have done nothing to deserve it = prick, in my opinion. It doesn't matter if its something that will only spoil their fun "if you let it". Spoiling someones fun is spoiling someones fun.

As I can almost feel the following argument already: No, I don't think it matters that not being allowed to do something spoils your fun. Then its just one persons fun against others. If theres a server of a dozen people, one person wants to do something, half the others don't want him to do it and the others don't care either way, then he should not do it. Doing it anyway is just being selfish and childish.*

I think trying to define one kind of being a cock as griefing, and another kind of being a cock as not griefing, is kind of missing the point.

*in a bad way, not in the normal 5punky good way.

[Gunslinger42]

See, I don't see silly chat replies and name changes as being anything like using weapons you know makes other people cry. The first two have absolutely no affect on the *actual game*. The last one does.

When it comes down to just using a weapon or vehicle, I don't think it really counts as griefing. I don't use the grenade launcher because it annoys people, I use it because I want to. If I was using it in some odd way, like bunny hopping and firing it at my feat, or crashing suicide jeeps into tanks, etc I can understand it being called griefing, but just using it properly - and being good with it, which seems to be the problem a lot of the time - doesn't strike me as being wrong. I loathe the good jet/chopper whores in BF2, they definitely ruin my fun, but I don't consider them griefers. They're not doing it to piss me off or abusing the game mechanics in an unsportsmanlike way, they're just doing what they're supposed to do, and doing it well.

[Joose]

My point is that it doesn't matter if what you are doing is technically ok, or is ok to you, or ok to other people on other servers. What matters is the server you are on. I know this is fast turning into another noob tubing argument, but I think its a good example of what i mean in general terms anyway, so I'll push on.

A lot of people on the 5punk server don't like the grenade launcher.
A few people on the 5punk server don't care either way.
A minority of people (like one or two, as far as I, an outsider, can tell) on the 5punk server like using the grenade launcher.

If that minority of people keep using the launcher, even though a lot of people don't like them using it, then that is bad. If you are doing it even though you know lots of people don't like you doing it, then that's being a selfish cock. I think calling it "griefing" is muddying the issue by using stupid made up technical terms.

I don't think it matters why it annoys people, or how it annoys people. Minority of players annoying majority of players is bad, "griefing" or no.