Griefing

[Dog Pants]

After reading this I was curious as to the 5punky opinions on griefing. After all, one man's joke is another man's grief as many of us have found out. Where do we draw the line? As a somewhat silly community we sometimes get accused of it, yet we pride ourselves on not being. But are we?

[Mr. Johnson]

As everyone's favourite backstab victim, i don't like it, but i can see the funny side of it. Besides, it's my own fault for not watching my back i guess.
I wouldn't do it to randoms though, i think if randoms play fair on our servers, they keep things fresh so we shouldn't pick on them.

[amblin]

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[friznit]

Griefing takes place in nearly all games. No doubt this question is posed with COD4 / UT type shooters in mind, but as it's an open thread I'll get IBTH (In Before The Hulk) and cite our favourite spreadsheets in space game. Griefing has been developed to something of an art form in this online universe, and while I don't particularly enjoy it, it's an inescapable part of the game mechanic. Perhaps the only thing funnier/more annoying (depending which side you're on) than a griefer, is the guy who whines about it in the public chat channels that 'it's not realistic!' At which point I feel duty bound to remind him that he's playing a computer game that, de facto, is hardly the pinnacle of realism.

And see, I didn't mention the unmentionable even once. Go me.

[Hehulk]

at Friz

I don't tend to have an issue with griefing for giggles, especially if I'm bored. The reactions you get from some hollier than thou types is so very worth the minor effort you have to put in. Conversly, if I feel I'm being griefed, I either look at it from their POV and have a good laugh, or go do something else. That's a pretty rare occurance though.

[Dr. kitteny berk]

My view is that griefing is bad most of the time.

However, fucking with griefers/wankers, or just being downright silly (medic mantrain, for example), is fine.

[mrbobbins]

I think our definition of griefing is different to most randoms, some might consider a whole team jumping up and down in a bath, not playing the game properly, as greifing, can't think of any more examples though... erm... that's it.

[Dog Pants]

I wouldn't do it to randoms though, i think if randoms play fair on our servers, they keep things fresh so we shouldn't pick on them.

Never thought of the option of griefing being okay so long as it's only between us (well, it's not really griefing between us as it's not meant maliciously).

Am I griefing or just using the game?

A bit game specific all that, but I think that's where it's relevant.

For me it depends on the intent. If you're doing it to have a bit of fun at the end of a round then it's no big deal even if it gives people the rage a little bit. COD4 and BEEF both seem to be a greyer area than most, and I think it's because people feel as though they've invested more in the game becasue of the unlocks.

No doubt this question is posed with COD4 / UT type shooters in mind, but as it's an open thread I'll get IBTH (In Before The Hulk) and cite our favourite spreadsheets in space game.

Actually, the article cites Eve specifically (the Guiding Hand Social Club theft). I think MMONGs have the potential to suffer from it more because players invest so much more than in other games.

I think our definition of griefing is different to most randoms, some might consider a whole team jumping up and down in a bath, not playing the game properly, as greifing, can't think of any more examples though... erm... that's it.

This is mainly what I was wondering about when I made the post. We've done things that others probably considered griefing. Other famous examples are the faaabulous pride marches and Spartacus invasion in City of Heroes. These are things which make 5punk what it is, but we don't consider ourselves griefers. But does not having the intent mean we aren't, or do the effects of what we do make us griefers regardless?

[TezzRexx]

Shades of grey I'm afraid.

And also, people might find the old past time of changing our user names to piss takes of randomer's grief-ing even thought it doesn't harm their game. Same with Bobbins and the bath situation.

But I agree with Berk, griefing a griefer is fine but griefing someone who doesn't deserve is wrong. However that could also turn be the case if we take the piss with the user names, of someone who's done nothing wrong, which could in turn be wrong in itself...

[Dr. kitteny berk]

This is mainly what I was wondering about when I made the post. We've done things that others probably considered griefing. Other famous examples are the faaabulous pride marches and Spartacus invasion in City of Heroes. These are things which make 5punk what it is, but we don't consider ourselves griefers. But does not having the intent mean we aren't, or do the effects of what we do make us griefers regardless?

Those things we did in CoH didn't adversely affect the game experience for anyone, no more than costume contests, or people being retarded on thinker's corner.

So I wouldn't consider those griefing.


Also, in games with 5punkers, I expect people to play with 5punkers in mind, to try to keep games as fair and even as possible, so the vast majority has as much fun as they can. Even if that means not using some weapons to lower your effectiveness a bit.

Often someone has to tactically swap teams to keep stuff as even as possible.

So while some people will get stabbed in the back more than others, I feel that's probably better than taking their head off from 40' away... if you walk up behind someone and say their name, they're more likely to have chance to react.

[Shada]

Griefing is hilarious if it's thought out well - like that one TF2 vid of the scout blocking the door and only letting people through if they get trivia right. Also "passive griefing" where you simply follow an ally player around forever and stare at him without saying a word can be pretty funny too.

But if it's boring and uninspired like excessive teamkilling then there's not really any point to it. Might as well just go and do something else.

Voted the "people should be able to do what they want" option, though, because that's how i feel about video games.

[Mr. Johnson]

So while some people will get stabbed in the back more than others, I feel that's probably better than taking their head off from 40' away... if you walk up behind someone and say their name, they're more likely to have chance to react.

That is true, besides, i haven't been backstabbed 20 times in a row lately.

[Dr. kitteny berk]

That is true, besides, i haven't been backstabbed 20 times in a row lately.

See?

Stabbing you in the back was educational

[Dog Pants]

Griefing is hilarious if it's thought out well - like that one TF2 vid of the scout blocking the door and only letting people through if they get trivia right. Also "passive griefing" where you simply follow an ally player around forever and stare at him without saying a word can be pretty funny too.

I have to admit, I did find that very funny. I couldn't say whether or not I'd have seen it as funny if I was playing at the time, but if I didn't I could have always moved to another server. In FPSs you do always have that option, so I think sometimes people overreact.

[spoodie]

I don't see knifing an opponent as griefing at all, it's part of the game play and you get awards for it in some games. Sure it can be annoying to be on the receiving end, but that's your fault and it's great if you're the stabber.

[mrbobbins]

Just thought of another one, being nuked by everyone just before my massive cannon is ready in Sup Com. Every time.

Now that's griefing.

But it also very funny

[Stoat]

Voted the "people should be able to do what they want" option, though, because that's how i feel about video games.

Quite so. However when this has the side effect of denying other people this same right, the ideal breaks down.

[Shada]

Quite so. However when this has the side effect of denying other people this same right, the ideal breaks down.

Pfft, I could say the utilitarian ideology and the idea of "for the greater good" has holes in it that cause a considerable amount of repression in the small number of people who are restricted.

but this is video games. not ideologies. i tend to want to just play them rather than think about them.

edit: of course, I'm lying. I think about games all the time. Right now I'm thinking "Goddamn, I wish Clear Sky was out."

[MORDETH LESTOK]

I voted "Nobody has the right to spoil the game for someone". But, I mean that in the strictest sense though. Not just some whiny player crying about sucking at the game. If the game included PvP...then its kill or be killed.

That being said...it all depends on the game and its rules and whether you're just being a dick or not and finally...how much of a time loss it causes you.

In Everquest, when we had to spend hours just killing our way in somewhere to get to the final mob...and then some dick sneaks his way in and kills the healer while everyone is fighting...then everyone dies....the loss of time spent and the time needed to regroup and start all over is fucking fuck fuck fuck!!!

Now, getting the whole guild to KOS him and get him to quit the game is fine with me. But, if you're just worried about respawning in a FPS...then thats just silly.

Lastly, I just hate people who pick on noobs or exploit grief.


Can't we all just get along...kill me if you must....but don't be a dick about it.

[buzzmong]

I'm mainly with berk on this.

Some of the stuff we do isn't griefing in the slightest (re: Man trains, bath! etc) as it's not specifically ruining peoples games, mainly just us larking about with each other, sometimes not affecting others at all, although it does piss some people off occasionally, but that's funny as they're generally getting pissed off at something which isn't actually affecting them, they might just be witnessing something.

Beef gave me the rage, but 99% of the time it wasn't griefing on that game, occasionally you'd get stuck and raped at a none capturable spawn point, and I do feel occasionally the other players should pull back and let the match continue properly rather than being a one sided boring killspawn fest (As seen on Beef, we do pull back if we've trapped them good and properly, mainly on Sharqi), but that was no so much griefing as just poor design on some aspects of those maps.


However, if people are going to deliberatly ruin peoples game, eg, excessive bunny hopping, hax/glitching which give massive advantage, being a complete cupcake and forcing someone out of the game for no reason than "I can so I will", I get rather angry, not at the actual griefing, but more at the actual griefer as I cannot fathom that once you know you're ruining someone's game that it's fine to continue, it's just the epitome of cuntishness imo.

Edit: Voted for the 2nd option "Nu-uh, is bad, but if people get upset at silly things their problem"