New ISS Stuff

[friznit]

Read the ISS News Forum. Also copied to Alliance Mail.

Main points:

NBSI (but not pirate - we'd like to ask questions then shoot)

Access to Northern Omist and running the LV stations there

All fees including 'rifis dropped to 5mill per person per week

Hopefully selling Prov & Fabrica

New chat channels replacing some of the obsolete ones

[Quinntarn]

All fees including 'rifis dropped to 5mill per person per week

When we pay for this... do you want a note attached to the donation?

Q

[bomberesque]

Yay for new directions, let's see where it leads us.

Q; there's directions on how to pay the fen in the tenerifis thread (new post from friz)

OTOH;

NBSI (but not pirate - we'd like to ask questions then shoot)

This, IMO, will mean NBSI. Noot bothered either way, but we have enough hair triggers around that any pretence at asking first is likely to be paper thin. Shame, I liked NRDS

[Fear]

So as to not dirty the 'IAC War Room':

ISS is now to all intents and purposes part of LV. We live in their space, use their stations, pay them rent, and are fully aligned to their standings.

Why not actually join LV? Seems to me like ISS is becoming an LV 'pet' to get a footing back, but 5punkorp might be able to take this a step further and enter LV itself.

I realise this would need a bigger corp, but I am sure they'd be other ISS corps willing?

I have to be honest, I don't see anything positive going for ISS now it has no (useful) stations. The free manufacturing was a big thing before the stations got taken. But now all it seems to do is dictate 5punkorp policy for no real gain. There is nothing you are doing now that you wouldn't be able to do in another alliance.

Does this also mean ISS are nap'd with BOB (albeit unofficially)

/devils advocate

[friznit]

There's plenty ISS has to offer. We're not just going to sit idly mining in these regions. They are colonies from which to form a footing for the new ISS business plan. LV won't take us until we have 100 members - most of us don't really want 100 members. In straw poll last night most people seemed to feel that they like 5punkorp the size it is. Besides, not entirely sure I want to join LV...been looking at their leadership a bit and well....dunno. Don't feel right.

Please tell me candidly, from an external point of view, what is really wrong with ISS? I'm after solid info...I've never been in another alliance and with the way ISS is moving I currently see no reason to be.

[bomberesque]

Following Fear's example of hijacking this thread for sub critical war room items...

Say I had put together a small clutch of ships & mods for the Fabrica defence but hadn't got round to moving all of them out of Hoth yet. Would I be better to have them sent to Serenity instead? Sounds like it...

In direct relation to what Fear said... I'm not sure what ISS will make of itself either, but that doesn't mean I think we're in a hopeless situation at all. However it's painted by ISS management, the loss of the outposts is a really bad blow to us and it is testament to the committed corps (including us) within ISS that we still have an alliance at all. For that reason alone, it has to be worth persevering with. The caravan idea is a great one and I hope that the logistics can be worked out to make this work. I have a dog on a string and a matress ready to burn. Gyppos Ho!

About LV, my guess is that moving into LV space was about the only door open to us in the short term. I can accept this as strategically necessary but we need to avoid it turning into a dead end for us (ISS)

I for one have little interest in being part of a tennant alliance for ever but I can see the use of it in the short term, so long as we don't let it define us. I would like to see it, rather, as a place to regroup and plan the future. If we rise from the ashes of our own demise, we'll make EVE-history (again).

About the alliance in general, Friz is absolutely right, a lot of dead wood has left in the last month. Sadly, I think there is a fair amount more still onboard and I hope that Management do something about that. As an alliance of 400 committed pilots rather than 400 committed + 800 hangers on we could achieve a lot more and move a lot faster.

Also; long term goal should be take the outposts back, imo. Never give in Never Surrender :D

[Fear]

Please tell me candidly, from an external point of view, what is really wrong with ISS? I'm after solid info...I've never been in another alliance and with the way ISS is moving I currently see no reason to be.

Being fairly out-of-the-loop now, a lot of what I say might be plain wrong. The only glimpse into ISS I have is through this board so I have to join a lot of dots together. I sometimes wonder over to EVE-O, but rarely, and I don't believe 95% of that anyway.

Here we go:

ISS has just been slaughtered. There is no way to paint this positively. It has lost everything it had of value. When people go about saying "this is what we needed, we've come out stronger, etc" I can't help but cringe. It simply can't be true. At best it might be a good kick into a new ISS ethos/direction. But you've still been knocked down hard (against untenable odds I know). You also haven't got many friends it seems - the neutrality (AKA apolitical) stance failed you big time.

As I see ISS now it is pretty much dead. It doesn't do anything or have any goals, or the capability to achieve any goals. This isn't to say you can't pick yourselves up (and running into LV space is a very good move I think).

From a military point of view it is awful, it couldn't knock the skin off a rice pudding. Again this can most certainly change, but ISSN needs a massive shake up for this to be the case. Perhaps even disband it all together into corps like any other. The dependence on the ISSN was one of the biggest failures of late.

From an industrial point of view it is (was) simply big. Possibly the second to ASCN. Whilst industry no doubt has its advantages, it has to come second to PvP or you'll perish when someone feels like a bit of fun. Industrial corps will run away when the fighting starts so there is little advantage to having them as members. This was another large failure of late.

The management, from an outsiders point of view, are incapable at best. There needs to be more direction and faster decisions made. They need to focus more on the alliance than their IPO dealings. It seemed to me just before I left Count + gang were more interested in their IPO than the alliance itself. I don't see how the IPO benefits anyone but Count.

I guess to me it just seems like an alliance to massage Count's ego a bit, is pretty much incapable of anything other than messing about with shares and knocking down the odd pirate. Managing other alliances stations seems to have no benefits to anyone really. Why bother? What is there to actually manage? Fuelling the odd deathstar?

To succeed it needs to align itself on one side or the other of the southern war and fight it. I can't see how it can do anything else and survive.

The NBSI is an excellent improvement I might add.


Edit: I also recognise that there are some great corps in ISS, Prax, WNova, 5punkorp, etc. More effort should be put into accommodating these corps and you can only grow stronger.

[Lee]

As far as I'm concerned we ARE much better off than before the war. I can't say I'm all that bothered that we've lost the stations. The alliance didn't really lose anything, the stations were publicly owned.

You haven't read our full plans so you cant say we no goals. Our future plans are to start "caravan fleets" with the aim to use the ISS IPO money to stock stations all over 0.0 space and fighting anyone who gets in our way.

Count has admitted that when he created ISS he didn't exactly have gameplay in mind but has come to value that more recently than in the past. I have to say that the new ISS looks like it'll be far more fun than the old one and thats all that counts for me.

[Fear]

The alliance didn't really lose anything, the stations were publicly owned.

*cringes*

They were ISS owned, regardless of how you spin it or how they were funded.

I also agree that the stations didn't really achieve much for the alliance as a whole and they are most likely better off not basing out of them.

The idea of spreading them all over the galaxy though is daft, surely they should grow with claimed space (which I assume is also part of the new ISS way). Otherwise they'll just attack them all at once and spread you so thin you'll lose them all.

I have to say that the new ISS looks like it'll be far more fun than the old one and thats all that counts

Agreed.

[eRabbit]

As I see ISS now it is pretty much dead. It doesn't do anything or have any goals, or the capability to achieve any goals. This isn't to say you can't pick yourselves up (and running into LV space is a very good move I think).

No offence, you see wrong. ISS is becoming very interesting and I'm all for staying in it, the future is gonna be another first for Eve and I'd much rather try and take part in that than move to an e-peen waving "pvp" alliance.

We've moved into LV space yes, but we're also gonna be moving all over the Eve-verse (if we choose to join a caravan fleet). It's gonna be interesting.

Oh and also, the stations were ISS owned but publicy funded, therefore ISS didn't technically lose anything of it's own.

[Dolly Parton]

Fear

don't get all pissy when you read this but you are WRONG!

ISS could have handled IAC, but when its ISS vs IAC/AAA/D2/SOD and others yeah your gonna lose some battles. Having to only run 1 or a few outposts is better for us. The whole North and South areas I never agreed with either. Still its too soon to see if this next direction is going to be a good one but the area we are in now is better than what we had before, less hostiles, not on pipe so corp wise things are looking up. I got a new carrier pilot coming hopefully which brings us up to 3. We got a station right next door that has 5punk market monopoly written all over it.

So in short fear you might be right ISS maybe dead and we haven't realized it yet but I personally think you and every one else in eve is drinking the eve-o forums koolaid and want to dismiss us as done. We are better pvp wise cause of the war. The ones who don't want to help are gone and more our leaving everyday but the ones that need/should and have stayed are here and aren't gonna back down.

DP

[Fear]

Fear

don't get all pissy when you read this but you are WRONG!

Of course not.

ISS could have handled IAC

I have to be honest, I don't think they could. They lost almost every fight (bar one in w9). IAC were fielding tech 2, ISS only tech 1. Our FC weren't as good as theirs, and our pilots weren't as experienced. When we did have opportunities to inflict damage we didn't take them, and instead got our selves boxed into POS shields.

I don't think we would have lost ZX or KDF against only IAC tho.

The whole North and South areas I never agreed with either.

So in short fear you might be right ISS maybe dead and we haven't realized it yet

I don't think you are dead in the sense of gone forever - but you are dead in so much as influence, military might and perhaps even industrial might. As I said up there ^ you can most certainly pull this back.

There is however a lot of propaganda coming from ISS and I do honestly think some of you are believing it is better than it really is. I understand the need for morale boosting but some of the stuff I hear is insulting peoples intelligence.

personally think you and every one else in eve is drinking the eve-o forums koolaid and want to dismiss us as done.

I don't, I honestly don't. And I haven't loaded EVE-O once since the new ISS direction was put to the floor. I guess I felt the need to post because there are a lot of people wearing rose-tinted glasses at the moment and they needed to hear a differing opinion (which I am happy to admit is wrong)

We are better pvp wise cause of the war. The ones who don't want to help are gone and more our leaving everyday but the ones that need/should and have stayed are here and aren't gonna back down.

DP

[Fear]

Oh, and to ensure nobody is getting the wrong end of my stick...

All my comments are of the Alliance itself - not of 5punkorp. 5punkorp still rawks.

Don't take anything I say personally.

[friznit]

Most of what I was going to say has already been said. Losing those stations was a blow, no doubt about it, but to our morale and self esteem rather than our pocket. It proved what we secretly knew all along - that we didn't have a PvP fleet to speak of. Sure, we could throw together 100 people, a bunch of carriers and some dreads, but against a determined assault we stood no chance. As DP said, had it been just us and IAC, then maybe it would be a different story. We're closely matched in terms of firepower and capability.

Ultimately though, we've well on the way to completing the biggest IPO in Eve history. Count isn't doing this for himself, he genuinely cares about his alliance. He's come to terms with the fact that the Eve community saw 'neutrality' as a little quaint, but ultimately when the chips were down didn't really give a shit about their shares in the outposts. Gloves are off now - he's 'no more Mr Nice Guy'. He's fed up with altruism, creating a better Eve for everyone else. He's seen his alliance backstabbed, ignored, insulted, dragged through the dirt and fucked about and now he's had it - going to do what we want now, what's good for ISS - you won't see any announcements on Eve-O either - as he said "It's nobody's bloody business what we do now".

[bfm]

Most of what I was going to say has already been said. Losing those stations was a blow, no doubt about it, but to our morale and self esteem rather than our pocket. It proved what we secretly knew all along - that we didn't have a PvP fleet to speak of. Sure, we could throw together 100 people, a bunch of carriers and some dreads, but against a determined assault we stood no chance. As DP said, had it been just us and IAC, then maybe it would be a different story. We're closely matched in terms of firepower and capability.

Ultimately though, we've well on the way to completing the biggest IPO in Eve history. Count isn't doing this for himself, he genuinely cares about his alliance. He's come to terms with the fact that the Eve community saw 'neutrality' as a little quaint, but ultimately when the chips were down didn't really give a shit about their shares in the outposts. Gloves are off now - he's 'no more Mr Nice Guy'. He's fed up with altruism, creating a better Eve for everyone else. He's seen his alliance backstabbed, ignored, insulted, dragged through the dirt and fucked about and now he's had it - going to do what we want now, what's good for ISS - you won't see any announcements on Eve-O either - as he said "It's nobody's bloody business what we do now".

w00t I'm in the sekret stuff!

Anyway, those public outposts have been an anoyance for me for a long time. We really wanted more people to mine the good stuff in tenerifis, but we needed to hold a presence in the public outposts as well. Not something we liked. Before the D2/IAC attack, we allready had plans (and negotiations) to sell of some outposts (like the northern ones). This would make us less scattered thus stronger.

So I'd allmost wanna thank IAC/D2 for taking those stations. Now we can all live in some better place and get more isk to loose in pvp 1 day later. We will be more concentrated so getting ppl together should be easier to do. We can pay of the shareholders in just a few months, and then the ISS alliance can make a shitload of cash to get us all into motherships and titans.

Regarding dead weight in ISS. All corporation MUST move to our new regions or they can fuck off to empire and leave the alliance. Any ceo will look very carefully to his memberlist as he is responsible for paying teh fees. Besides that, my personal project atm is "ISA", the internal security agency. I'll make guidelines regarding recruitment for all corporations (dont worry, nothing major). Besides that I'll create a spy-alt to join ISS corps and spy them! (no, his name is NOT stins!)

[friznit]

I have to be honest, I don't think they could. They lost almost every fight (bar one in w9). IAC were fielding tech 2, ISS only tech 1. Our FC weren't as good as theirs, and our pilots weren't as experienced. When we did have opportunities to inflict damage we didn't take them, and instead got our selves boxed into POS shields.

Sorry dude. How many fleet battles did you actually take part in after we lost F4 to sabotage? We may have lost some battles, but we were facing overwhelmingly superior odds - and it was SoD, NOT IAC who were fielding T2 ships. In the battle for Tycho, we certainly did not sit in the POS shield. We were out there with our fleet of 80 against their combined fleet of 400 and ship for ship we came out on top - including taking down one of their carriers in the middle of their whole blob. Sure, we could never win the battle and save the POS's, but we gave them one hell of a bloody nose. And to top it all, we wiped the floor with them when we were on a more level playing field in W9. Twice. Not forgetting that we successfully rescued our own POS the week before, and we've won pretty much every fight so far up in Providence. I'm afraid you missed out on some of the best stuff when you left - don't let that limited experience tarnish your view of what we've achieved since then and can achieve still.

We're not even close to dead, propoganda aside. Our real industrial powerbase has yet to be touched. But thank you for your opinion - it's good to hear the other side of the coin and make sure I'm not disappearing too far up my own arse here

[Fear]

Sorry dude. How many fleet battles did you actually take part in after we lost F4 to sabotage? We may have lost some battles, but we were facing overwhelmingly superior odds - and it was SoD, NOT IAC who were fielding T2 ships.

I left 1 day before the sabotage of F4 I think, the times I was referring to were before MC got brought in IAC hurt us in the majority of battles, even when they were jumping into our camps. Also once F4 had that single POS they won the majority of fights in that system. I was involved in 80% of fleet battles before I left I think (when online obviously).

OK some had SOD mixed in, but a lot didn't and they still won, for whatever reason. Some of it was them primary-ing our target callers which was because of spies.

Obviously I can't speak of what happened after I left so I won't try to. If you say ISS v IAC was much more level after I left then I can't dispute that.


For what it is worth now I have some idea of the ISS plans I feel much better about it, so you have changed my opinion a fair bit.

Not entirely sure how ISS will not become dragged into the southern war, whether it wants to be or not.

[Dolly Parton]

I left

[eRabbit]

I left 1 day before the sabotage of F4 I think, the times I was referring to were before MC got brought in IAC hurt us in the majority of battles, even when they were jumping into our camps. Also once F4 had that single POS they won the majority of fights in that system. I was involved in 80% of fleet battles before I left I think (when online obviously).

All you saw of the war was us caught unprepared and the main priority of the alliance was to get logistics sorted. After you left we kicked into war mode, after our friends/mercs left we kicked even more into war mode. ISS is rather different to be in now

[Fear]

Well from all the replies to my inane drivel it seems ISS is much better than when I departed.

If true that is most win.

Even though when leaving I said I wouldn't be interested in rejoining ISS because I didn't really enjoy it and/or fit in much - if ISS is becoming much more a 'traditional' alliance this changes my view. But for now I am happy pottering around Privateers and low-sec whoring. If permitted I'll no doubt rejoin one day and we can resurrect our late-night-ratting rituals Dolly.