The Trouble With Atheism (Tonight 8pm C4)

Post by **deject** » December 19th, 2006, 10:01

I know a few of you guys know where I stand, and it's pretty obvious how evangelical I am. What makes me sad is how badly we Christians are thought of. In fact, I avoid mentioning it because I know that if I say anything the reaction I'd get would be akin to being outcast. Basically what I'm trying to say is that not all of us Christians are the totally irrational assholes who cause all the strife in the world. I feel that calling myself a Christian associates me me with the likes of Jerry Faldwell, Benny Hinn, and Pat Robertson. Those asshats have done pretty much nothing but fuck up the image we have with their false practices and deceit. I hate to see what I believe in become something so hated.

Believe me guys, I'm not going to preach to you unless I think it might accomplish something other than making everything unfluffy.

/covers sleeve

Post by **ProfHawking** » December 19th, 2006, 10:09

i dont think i can say anything that hasnt already been said.
I dont like the idea of religion, in the way that it states what everyone should be doing, like it knows something we don't. Why should some old peoples guesses rule our lives.

I think that as a moral framework, it could be useful. However it is oh so eaily bent out of shape by the fundamentalists on all sides, and usesed as an argument for all sorts of trouble.

The other thing that angers me is people trying to horse their point of view on others. No excuses there, fuck off.

Hehulk · Post by **Hehulk** » December 19th, 2006, 10:13

deject wrote:/covers sleeve

Your a christian on heroin and/or someone who cuts themselves

?

For my spiel, I'm agnostic (I think). Tis my belief that people are people and cunts are cunts. Every faset of society has both, but we'd most likely all be alot happier if we ignored the second lot.

Post by **tandino** » December 19th, 2006, 10:13

deject wrote:I know a few of you guys know where I stand, and it's pretty obvious how evangelical I am. What makes me sad is how badly we Christians are thought of. In fact, I avoid mentioning it because I know that if I say anything the reaction I'd get would be akin to being outcast. Basically what I'm trying to say is that not all of us Christians are the totally irrational assholes who cause all the strife in the world. I feel that calling myself a Christian associates me me with the likes of Jerry Faldwell, Benny Hinn, and Pat Robertson. Those asshats have done pretty much nothing but fuck up the image we have with their false practices and deceit. I hate to see what I believe in become something so hated.

<b>Believe me guys, I'm not going to preach to you unless I think it might accomplish something other than making everything unfluffy.</b>

/covers sleeve

I think the fact that hardly any of us know about your faith is indicative of how likely you are to preach to us mate. For example, I'm not about to slap my grandparents for being Catholic and the same applies to friends, regardless of the path they choose.

Post by **Dog Pants** » December 19th, 2006, 10:25

I think it's good that we've got a mix of opinions here, and as long as nobody starts putting other people down for their beliefs then there's nothing wrong with discussing it.

As with everything, I think religion has its pros and cons. In day to day life religion has stopped people being complete bastards to each other, and I can't think of a religion in the world that doesn't promote kindness and goodwill.

However, sometimes it gets taken too far and people forget what their religion stands for. This is when wars get started and people get oppressed by their beliefs. This is, I think, pretty much the exception though, and it doesn't take religion to start a war - people can do that perfectly well without.

Personally, although I'm not religous, I have the greatest respect for the beliefs of people who are, and as long as it gives people comfort and encourages goodwill I'll continue to.

Post by **Joose** » December 19th, 2006, 11:10

Dog Pants wrote:However, sometimes it gets taken too far and people forget what their religion stands for. This is when wars get started and people get oppressed by their beliefs. This is, I think, pretty much the exception though, and it doesn't take religion to start a war - people can do that perfectly well without.

The problem with belief structures of all kinds (and im including things like people who 'believe' in darwinism and atheists and the like) tends not to be the religion or whatever itself, but the people who claim to believe in them.

Most major religions hold that killing people is bad, regardless of who they are, and yet most major religions have members (often a minority) that believe in "slaughtering the heritics". As another example (and I am using christianity here just because its the one I know most about, im sure theres equally valid examples in other faiths): take Christianities reaction to sex before marriage. Most christians would say "no! tis a sin!" and point to the commandments. However, in the original language (and therefore, the *actual* meaning) it more accurately said "thou shalt not sleep around like a slapper". Didnt have anything about marriage specifically, it was just saying you shouldnt cheat on people, which I doubt anyone would really have a problem with. But because of rather half assed translations its taken on a whole new meaning, which people take as truth because they dont really know what they are talking about.

The same can be said about christians who dont drink. It never says, anywhere, "thou shalt not drink". For fucks sake, one of jesus's more well known miracles involves him turning water into wine so that people can carry on having a piss up.

As another more topical example: Ive heard a lot of immam's saying that, actually, killing non muslims *isnt* allowed by the koran, any more than killing non christians is allowed by the bible. Its totally against their religion. But because a few people took something the wrong way and then convinced other people of their fucked up viewpoint, we have ended up with planes being flown into buildings.

Its not the religion. Its the idiots who get the religion wrong.

Trouble is, although the majority of christians (for example) are actually reasonable people who wont shun you if you have a drink or shout at you if you live with your girlfriend, they dont get noticed. Because they look and act pretty much the same as everyone else. The ones that get noticed are the stupid buggers like those mentioned above, that insist that creationism is the absolute truth (theres plenty of christians who think genisis is just a good story told to illustrate various moral points, and not actually an accurate description of the beginning of the world, btw) or the ones that stand in the middle of the high street shouting about how you are all going to hell. They are twats, but they are a minority. You just dont notice the non-twatish christians.

As a kind of side note, theres equally twattish people on the other side of the fence too. My old physics teacher *insisted* that darwinism was 100% fact, and couldn't admit that there is a possibility that at some point in the future we would find some evidence to suggest that it might have happened some other way. Those 'scientist' who rather arrogantly think that what we know now is right, despite all the fuckups we have made in the past, piss me off just as much as the people who insist creationism is right.

Post by **fabyak** » December 19th, 2006, 11:30

FatherJack wrote:Meh to this thread. I think Bill and Ted summed it up best: "Be excellent to each other."

Some of what my [largely church-going] family's churches do is good: providing real help to some of the most run-down areas of the city and trying to maintain a sense of community in a society that's forgotten what that means. Also our funerals are actually quite fun, especially the odd looks we get from other people at the crem.

However you don't need to be religious to be a decent person, and indeed, a number of people who attend those churches seem to have forgotten those wise words from the Excellent Adventure and think it's all about personal salvation.

I saw a thing on TV about a church in Birmingham that was also a shopping centre and thought that was a great idea, too: not being scared to challenge biblical things. The Creationism vs. Darwinism thing is missing the point a bit - that's another religion and another testament.

Despite my username, I don't particularly believe in anything, other than that you should be a considerate human being, regardless of whether or not you believe there is a celestial entity keeping score.

Edit: oh, and DRINK!

totally 100% this, im not a religious person and I have no problem with people being religious (whatever their choice) unless they use it as an excuse to do really fucked up things. Had an interesting thought for the day on our company intranet yesterday which I feel is very relevant (if I can find it)

Some fella named Buddha wrote:Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it.
Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumoured by many.
Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books.
Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders.
Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations.
But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.

Also did anyone watch the 'Who Wrote The Bible' program on last christmas, I thought it was going to be really interesting and instead I got so bored that I switched off after 5 minutes

Fear · Post by **Fear** » December 19th, 2006, 11:57

I have no problem with religious people - my last girlfriend of 2 years was very religous - her dad was a reverend (and looked like Ned Flanders)

However what irritates me loads is when people are unable to think for themselves and just go around like a flock of sheep.

I actually do believe that the world would be much much better off without religion. Not becuase the religous people would disapear, but becuase they'd still be the same people with good morals. You don't need religon to be a nice person. What it would do away with is massive groups of people facing off under a badge of faith and mass control of brainwashed followers (not so much now, but certainly in the past - tho some religions are still guilty of this, i.e. Islam)

I know many people from all the faiths I am talking about here so this isn't an uneducated rant. I know many Muslims and many Christians. I was even invited to midnight Mass on Sunday in the pub by a catholic friend of mine!

Post by **Joose** » December 19th, 2006, 12:13

Fear wrote:midnight Mass on Sunday in the pub

sounds like my kind of Mass.

Hehulk · Post by **Hehulk** » December 19th, 2006, 13:13

Mass in a pub you say? Even I'd go to that, and I've taken violent exception to people preaching at me for a good few years now.

Note: If others can find joy in that kind of thing, great, but having tried to I just can't. It's like Berk and eve

Nickface · Post by **Nickface** » December 20th, 2006, 17:36

I don't identify with anything, because really, no one knows for sure. Therefore, I'm just going to life my life as best as I can. Because basically, what religion tells you to do can all be summed up in one sentence:

Don't be a dick.

And that's really all the moral philosophy that I need.

Duke of Ted · Post by **Duke of Ted** » December 21st, 2006, 1:32

i'll quote Ben Harper:
"you're choice is who you choose to be, and if you're causing no harm then you're alright by me"

and......... PARTY ON DUDES!