Hyperion and Abbadon

Lee · Post by **Lee** » July 31st, 2006, 20:23

After seeing the Dev blog here I decided I didn't like CCP's plans for the Hyperion and Abbadon so I thought I'd have a go at working out how I think they should be so I came up with this. I started writing it as an email to CCP but I think I might post it on the eve-o forums aswell, although that might cause flaming... Anyway here it is:

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After seeing the post in the Dev Blog about the new tier 3 battleships I was a bit worried about your ideas about the tier 3 Gallente and Amarr battleships.

In their current state they stand a good chance of making the Megathron and both the Armageddon and Apocalypse obsolete and unpopular choices. I believe the solution to this is to turn them into EW ships which both races are sorely missing in their battleship class. An EW BS would be far more useful than more gank/tank ships and would prevent other BSes from losing popularity.

The Hyperion being a blastership is an extremely bad idea, people will complain about tracking due to the lack of a tracking bonus and they will complain that the mwd bonus is completely useless as they still require a cap injector. The Megathron already does a good job of being a blastership and if it loses this role it will lose a lot of popularity. Not only this but it will lose its role as Rail ship to the Rokh making the Megathron a very underused ship.

To change the Hyperion into an EW ship (its concept art looks kind of like it should be an EW ship anyway) the following slot layout and bonuses should work:

High: 7 (5 turret, 3 missile)
Med: 7
Low: 6

5% Large Hybrid Turret Damage per level and 5% Sensor Dampner effectiveness and range per level.

I know that gives the ship 3 bonuses but it really is required for it to work as the dampners would have to be able to reach the range of Large turrets. Drone ships already get 3 bonuses so I dont think its too much of a problem. The only other way would be to remove the damage bonus and split the dampner bonuses but this may leave its dps too low.

It would require enough power grid and cpu to fit 5x 350mm rails and a cruise launcher, at least 4 Sensor Dampners and a single Armour Repairer tank with enough left over to fill the remaining slots. It should also have a 100m3 drone bay.

The Abbadon on the other hand is only going to result in complaints that their capacitor runs out within seconds and that the Amarr still only have two options, either gank or tank. Trying to make the abaddon proficient in the roles of either the Armageddon or Apocalypse means neither will be as popular as there is now a ship that does their roles better (if you can get around the cap problems), the Apocalypse would suffer from this the most.

To change the Abaddon into an EW ship the following slow layout and bonuses should work:

High: 7 (6 turret, 2 missile)
Med: 6
Low: 7

5% bonus to Tracking Disruptor effectiveness and 10% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer transfer amount per level.

The Abbadon would get an extra turret hard point to negate the lack of a damage bonus and the Energy Vampire bonus would also help as it would hurt your opponents ability to tank and replace the need for a Laser cap use reduction. Introducing a stacking penalty to Nos would probably be a good idea to balance the Abbadon and other ships that already make frequent use of Nos.

It would require enough power grid and cpu to fit 6x Dual Heavy Pulse Lasers and a Heavy Nosferatu (or more Nos an less guns), at least 4 Tracking Disruptors and a single Armour Repairer tank with enough left over to fill the remaining slots. It should have a 125m3 drone bay to allow it to use 5 heavy drones or a mixture of smaller ones.

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So, do you think I'd get flamed for this and what do you think of my ideas? Any Improvements?

Also, in other news (but please dont ignore my wall of text

), I've been playing on the test server a bit for the last few days, it tends to go up during downtime and then down again a few hours later, anyone fancy jumping on with me sometime for some 1v1s and some teamwork in the free for all areas?

I've managed to kill a Raven and an Armageddon solo in a Blasterthron and killed 2 Ravens, an Apoc and a Propecy with the help of the guy whose Geddon I killed.

Edit: Added a bit about the Rokh
Edit 2: Mentioned that the nos bonus also replaces the need for a Laser cap use reduction.

Akiakaiu · Post by **Akiakaiu** » July 31st, 2006, 20:37

I like the ideas, but I don't think the Hyperion would really lower demand for the Mega. Now I don't have loads of play time, but I've seen more sniper Megas then Megas with Blasters. Maybe this is in part to the fact that most of my time seeing them is gate camps ect where it's ok to be 100km off the target.

Lee · Post by **Lee** » July 31st, 2006, 21:04

From playing on the test server blasterthrons seem to be more popular in "real" pvp, theres more blasterthrons on there than anything else. If they introduced a new ship which is supposedly blaster specialised they're basically reducing the number of choices in the ways the Megathron can be set up, meaning it will primarily be used as a long range ship. Long range ships dont seem to be as popular as short range in "real" pvp so the Megathron may become an endangered species.

Hehulk · Post by **Hehulk** » July 31st, 2006, 21:33

Lee wrote:Long range ships dont seem to be as popular as short range in "real" pvp so the Megathron may become an endangered species.

Sadly, this is far from the truth in anything but specalized fleets let by extremly talented fleet commanders.

In 'real' PVP You get fleets warping into combat with each other at indertetimate ranges. You could end up right on top of one another, you could end up 90KM away. For this reason pretty much all fleets (I'm talking about, BS.I, RA, -V-, LV, CHIMP, FSA and the various corps I've fought) fit for long range, as it gives you the option of doing either.

If your worried about the megathron becoming useless because of the Hyperion, think again. It's the Rokh that's going to make it useless.

Lee · Post by **Lee** » July 31st, 2006, 21:36

Hehulk wrote:If your worried about the megathron becoming useless because of the Hyperion, think again. It's the Rokh that's going to make it useless.

Pff, see, not only does it lose its role as a blaster boat it also loses its role as a rail boat... I'll have to add that to my post somewhere tommorow. Its not just the fact that the Megathron may become obsolete, but I think the Hyperion would be way more useful as an EW ship and the same for the Abbadon.

Hehulk · Post by **Hehulk** » July 31st, 2006, 21:44

No, it's still going to be the best blaster boat in-game. Just that doesn't get used much outside of 1v1, which doesn't happen much.

This is assuming the Hyperion only has 7 turrets. If it has 8, it'll beat the Megathron.

Lee · Post by **Lee** » July 31st, 2006, 22:41

Looking at posts on eve-o I think I might not post my opinions of the Abbadon and just post about the Hyperion, a lot of people seem happy with it so I dont want to turn my post into a flame fest over the Abbadon.

I'd really like to see the Hyperion changed though, an EW ship would be far more useful and it'd be pretty cool warping in at 50km and dampening your target so they cant target you while an inty keeps them tackled

Also, when I say 'real' pvp I mean small scale skirmishes, they're far more fun that huge fleet battles and require more tactics.

Hehulk · Post by **Hehulk** » July 31st, 2006, 22:49

Lee wrote:Also, when I say 'real' pvp I mean small scale skirmishes, they're far more fun that huge fleet battles and require more tactics.

Fair enough, also this to the god damn nth degree

Lee · Post by **Lee** » August 1st, 2006, 11:15

Ok, I've decided to focus on the Hyperion and Rokh as they pose the most threat of making other ships obsolete but I've also mentioned a bit about the Abbadon and Maelstrom. Heres the new version:

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After seeing the dev blog concerning the new tier 3 battleships, I was a bit worried about some of the ship ideas, mainly those relating to the Hyperion and Rokh.

As it is either the Megathron or the Hyperion will become useless. The Megathron could lose its blastership role to the Hyperion, but as I've seen from a graph some one posted, the Hyperion will do almost the same damage as a Megathron due to its smaller drone bay. It will also have worse tracking and a "useless" mwd bonus. This could lead to the Megathron remaining as the blastership of choice and the Hyperion becoming useless. If, however, the Hyperion does take the blastership role, this would mean that the Megathron would only really make sense as a rail ship. This is where another problem comes in, The Rokh. As it currently will have 8 turret hard points it will be doing almost the same damage as a Megathron using rails but at longer range, drones wont really help the Megathron here as they would struggle to reach the range of 425s.

To help balance this I propose changing the Hyperion into an Electronic Warfare ship, this would add some diversity to Gallente battleships and leave the Megathron as a viable choice for a blaster or rail ship.

I think all tier 3 battleships should still conform to a 19 slot layout so as not to make them too overpowered vs tier 1 and 2. The aim of tier 3 should be to add more choice, not make super powerful battleships that make the others obsolete.

The Hyperion should have the following layout and bonuses in order to function properly as an EW ship:

High: 6 (Turrets: 5, Missiles: 3)
Med: 7
Low: 6

5% Large Hybrid Turret Damage per level and 5% Sensor Dampner effectiveness and range per level.

I know that gives the ship 3 bonuses but it really is required for it to work as the dampners would have to be able to reach the range of Large turrets. Drone ships already get 3 bonuses so I dont think its too much of a problem. The only other way would be to remove the damage bonus and split the dampner bonuses but this may leave its dps too low.

It would require enough power grid and cpu to fit 5x 350mm rails and a cruise launcher, at least 4 Sensor Dampners and a single Armour Repairer tank with enough left over to fill the remaining slots. It should also have a 75m3 drone bay to keep it from being too powerful as EW ships shouldnt have the DPS of combat ships.

The Rokh on the other hand should keep its current bonuses but its slot layout should be changed to the following:

High: 8 (Turrets: 7, Missiles: 4)
Med: 7
Low: 4

It should lose a turret hardpoint in order to keep its DPS low enough compared to the Megathron to keep the Megathron viable as a rail ship. The Rokh will still have huge range compared to the Megathron which offsets the lower DPS and will also tank very well.

It would require enough power grid and cpu to fit 7x425mm rails (with the help of 2 PDUs) and a Large Shield Booster tank (XL should be hard to fit) with enough left over to fill the remaining slots.

Just so they at least get a mention, I think the Abbadon could work well as it is as long as it still conforms to the 19 slot layout, 8-3-8 with 8 turret hard points would work and not be overpowered.

The Maelstron seems to have a lot of potential in its currrent state, I would suggest giving it enough powergrid to fit artillery if this wasnt already the plan so you have the choice of artillery or autocannons and not stuck with one type. A slot layout of 8-6-5 with 8 turret hardpoints and 3 missile hard points should work well, giving it a similar feel to the cyclone. I know this ship would benifit most from an 8-7-4 slot layout but the chance of CCP giving it the same layout as the Rokh is pretty low.

If the tier 3 BS really have to have 20 slots then the Hyperion should get an extra High, the Rokh a low, the Abbadon a mid and the Maelstrom a low.

Constructive criticism is welcomed.

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What do you think? I'm probably gonna post this version and also send it to CCP unless some one points out a flaw. Also, if you notice any spelling mistakes or dodgy wording let me know.

Hehulk · Post by **Hehulk** » August 1st, 2006, 11:22

I'd argue that you don't need enough grid with skills to fit 425s. It should be possible, but only with the use of PDUs/RCUs. Otherwise that in it's self would be unbalanced as you'd have a rack of heavy hitting guns in the highs, extremly strong tank in the mids, and damage mods/tanking gear in the lows.

BS gun tracking aside, that smells a bit too much like an I win button.

Also, a malestron with 6 mids makes me cry. Minnie ships are reknown for their bad cap, so to be effective it's going to need 7. Otherwise you might just as well fly a raven as it does the job better because it's got a fair whack more cap to run that tank with. Malestron needs a T2 cap recharger to compete.

Lee · Post by **Lee** » August 1st, 2006, 11:29

Hehulk wrote:I'd argue that you don't need enough grid with skills to fit 425s. It should be possible, but only with the use of PDUs/RCUs. Otherwise that in it's self would be unbalanced as you'd have a rack of heavy hitting guns in the highs, extremly strong tank in the mids, and damage mods/tanking gear in the lows.

BS gun tracking aside, that smells a bit too much like an I win button.

Also, a malestron with 6 mids makes me cry. Minnie ships are reknown for their bad cap, so to be effective it's going to need 7. Otherwise you might just as well fly a raven as it does the job better because it's got a fair whack more cap to run that tank with. Malestron needs a T2 cap recharger to compete.

Yeah, I was kind of thinking that you should need at least 2 PDUs to fit 425s but I also thought people might flame about that but I'll add it in.

I know you'd probably be better off with 8-7-4 but theres no way CCP will give you the same slot layout as the Rokh, 8-6-5 seems to be the best comprimise and probably how it will be unfortunately

amblin · Post by **amblin** » August 1st, 2006, 11:33

Hehulk · Post by **Hehulk** » August 1st, 2006, 12:26

300 mil? It's going to be easy T1 construction and the best bets right now have it costing about 130-140 once we get past the first few days of people trying to price gouge. Also, why train T2 rails? Because you'll beat missile DPS by miles, and you'll outrange the NPCs. Plus they can't neutralize any incomming fire with defender missiles.

Lee · Post by **Lee** » August 1st, 2006, 12:32

I've mentioned the need for PDUs to fit 7x425s on the Rokh and mentioned that the Maelstrom would work better with 8-7-4 but CCP probably wont do it. I think I'm gonna post this version later when I have more time to answer peoples replies.

Hehulk wrote:300 mil?

I think he means with fittings included. You could always create sniper bms for all the belts and do it that way.

Hehulk · Post by **Hehulk** » August 1st, 2006, 12:35

hmm, 300 mil if you go for some real expensive gear, I suppose.

Rough gestimate:

140 mil for the ship:
8 turrets @ 7 mil pu: 56 mil
T2 shield tank: 25 mil
Lows: 10 mil
Drones: 5 mil
Insurance: 40 mil

Total: 276 mil.

Ok, fine. Because it's a nice ship?

Lee · Post by **Lee** » August 1st, 2006, 12:47

Hehulk wrote:8 turrets @ 7 mil pu: 56 mil

7 if I have my way

Hehulk · Post by **Hehulk** » August 1st, 2006, 12:50

Why? 8 rails is hardly going to turn it into a solo gank ship. Rails just don't hit the way artillery does, though granted it hits a fair bit more often (damn you gallente pilots with your BS guns that fire more often and have better tracking

)

Lee · Post by **Lee** » August 1st, 2006, 12:53

If the Megathron fits 7 425s with a 25% damage modifier its like having 8.75 turrets. That means theres only a 0.75x difference between the Megathron and the Rokh which I dont think is big enough considering the huge range bonus the Rokh has.

Hehulk · Post by **Hehulk** » August 1st, 2006, 13:18

I dunno, I think people would still go for the Megathron. 9.3% difference is alot when you consider how much people train for T2 guns which maxed out (that's like 2 months training) only give 12.5% more than best named T1.

Now, if it had 7 turrets, megathron has a difference of 25%, and despite how much fleet battles suck the big one, you can guarantee that it'll still be full of Megathrons instead of people opting for either because it's an interesting ship.

Perhaps I'm missing something as I don't fly gallente yet, but it just doesn't seem like a bad ship, as it is right now.

amblin · Post by **amblin** » August 1st, 2006, 13:24