I'm not sure if it's been caused by the ASCN/Cruel Intentions war or not, but there seems to be a significant and recent increase in the number of roving griefer gangs coming down through Providence into Catch. Y-MP, so recently hailed as one of the least camped system in Eve, has had a big, hostile camp on it for nearly a week and the spate of random killings has increased tenfold in Providence.
It is clear to all of us that the ISSN in Catch have their hands full trying to police KDF and nearby systems. Without a massive boost in resources and manpower, ISSN is never going to be in a position to patrol the trade routes into Marginis. The immediate upshot being that the Marginis Outpost will fail to function effectively as a 0.0 trade hub.
It is beyond my remit to suggest policy to the ISS hierachy, but the success of hired mercenary corps in firstly resolving a number of war decs on ISS and secondly, protecting the trade routes into Borealis Outpost is telling.
Let me float an idea. Devolve ISSN to a corporate guard horse for the two outposts. Then, use third party PvP corps, either Alliance members or hired from outside, to proactively patrol the trade routes and act as gate camp breakers. Now I know this goes against the public policy of ISS but the KOS list does too, and that is getting longer everyday.
The desired endstate here to give traders and industrialists, whether ISS or not, the confidence to travel to Marginis and reap the benefit of increased profits from selling their wares deep in 0.0 space. If not, then Marginis and ultimately Borealis too will die, economically if not in a big ball of fire. ISS is after all, an industrial leviathan with the wherewithal to build two outposts and yet supports a diametrically tiny PvP corp. That balance needs to be redressed.
I obviously ruffled some feathers, cos ChaosHybrid from ISSN replied:
The war has brought roaming gangs to the corridor and they have been visiting Marginis in groups at times. But how about using another route to Marginis? If you travel through a warzone you are going to get shot at some point.
Sending Mercs into the area will not solve the problem and if the Mercs are traced back to us (as they would be) then it creates a diplomatic mess as we (ISS) will be seen to be openly asissting ASCN in the war. Which will lead to more wardecs and a shitstorm on forums (I refer you to the Baldour/CCC posts). The operative word in ISS is neutral - we don't get involved unless someone involves us.
We have to take a neutral standpoint to preserve the ISS Charter and the trade in Marginis. The reason that CI guys have been visiting Marginis is probably beacuse ther ASCN guys are using the station to buy and fit ships. The neutrality of the KDF system will be preserved and assets will be protected as best we can.
On the wardecs note - if people don't allow themselves to get ganked then wardecs won't happen. Unfortunately people do allow themselves to be ganked and more wardecs happen.
That definitely ruffled a few feathers, so I replied:
I take your point about neutrality and I agree whole heartedly. However, as with any neutral state afflicted by an insurgent threat, private security firms are considered fair game. As long as it is made perfectly clear that we are protecting our own interestst - ie. trade - then I don't see how this could lead to accusations of helping ASCN in the war. Our impartiality means that we target all pirate factions that are a proven, clear and direct threat to ISS interests.
I'm not going to grace your accusations with an answer. I'm sad that you think we're all that stupid.
(At the risk of turning into a yes man) Very well done friz. Especially handling that ISSN guy so well. In principal I agree with hm that we should not allow ourselves to get ganked, but are we just supose to ignore the empire trade hubs? For those ISS members who are empire bound, that's just not an option. More over, those of us who do live in 0.0, where are we suppose to go to sell our stuff? Sure, we could try selling em somewhere else, but in that situation, to get people away from the hubs you'd have to undercut the prices just to stand a chance of selling. And that's not healthy for buisness or the economy.
Imho he's just trying to sound all big and important. Kinda reads like smack though. And as far as the thing about mercs go, are SA completly without enemies? Any good merc corp would never say who hired them, so it'd just be down to guess work as to who hired them.
Oh, and let me not miss "Waaaaaaa! The mean man wants to take away what little power I have by devolving ISSN"
EDIT: Missed that point about using other routes. What, you mean like going through HED? How about the Berta or Assah route? Dumbass.
Second EDIT: Oh, and if you really want to come the long way, use the N-Rael entrace. that'd be fine so long as either V or RA arn't there.
This has actually turned into a useful discussion and the big people have taken notice, which is nice. For the benefit of those of you without ISS forum access then:
From Xorx, ISSN:
As of the past month, ISSN has undergone a rapid recruitment process. We're now fielding a larger, better equipped and well led horse who are starting to make their mark in terms of KDF security.
Hopefully after a period of learning, training and enforcement, KDF will become a safer place. However, for the next month or so, with BoB+FiX+Others vs Stain Alliance, it'll be fraught...
I added some sycophantic babble to prevent a flame war:
I'd like to add that this is in no way a dig at ISSN. I fully understand how hard you guys work for us and I salute your efforts. It's great to hear that you've had an upsurge in recruiting and resources and long may that continue. My post is no more than an idea as to how we might ameliorate our postion in Catch during the troubled times ahead.
Bomber chips in to my support:
If we all have to haul with the sort of support required to get through the gate camps ... then trade into and out of Marginis is going to be tough. To somehow create a corridor in a neutral fashion is the stuff of diplomacy as well as of naval power...I think it's a good idea to try.
Xorx again:
Currently the route from Keberz via HED-GP through to Marginis appears to be a LOT quieter than the route via Doril...Currently we do not have the military horse to completely secure the corridor as neutral. I am unaware of what plans senior command have in store for this...
Speaking purely personally but when the political position of one power that is otherwise friendly to ISS leads to escalated hostilities around the DMZ that endangers ISS members and other neutral shipping the logical and fair course of action is to remove the docking rights of all parties involved in the situation until such a time as allowing them to dock will not cause ISS space to become a warzone.
ASCN like to fight G up in Pure Blind sometimes. ISS have both of these alliances to +10. If either side was to start camping outside Borealis waiting for the other to undock I would immediately reccommend their docking rights be revoked until such a time as their actions have no effect on the day-to-day operation of the outpost.
If our friends can't recognise that sometimes the only way for us to protect our neutral stance is to pull up the bridge when their enemies come knocking then they aren't going to last long as friends.
Similarly if all parties involved in a conflict are capable of respecting ISS space as neutral where all war is off and they do not engage within the DMZ then ISS can carry on trading weapons to both sides and benefiting from their terrible situation. This relies heavily on the maturity of the individual pilot and the influence their leaders hold over them though. So I don't hold out much hope for it.
....
..I think the policy is that if we have someone at -ve standings anybody can do anything they want to them ISS or not. Might need further clarification from above but I tend not to care if somebody wants to shoot SA so long as it doesn't directly have any effect on ISS or neutral shipping.
An intersting tit bit from Arosth Katsbalger, also of ISSN:
I am not trying to sound like the pesimist, although i am sure it will come out as such. Again the Catch region is and has been for a long time a highly diputed region. There are alot of corps and alliances out that way that are against free and open trade in the deep space regions of the universe. They also dont understand the term "neutral". Neutral is weak to them. Thus, negotiating and politicin are done with lasers and missiles. I have heard from alot of my old contacts that they consider ISS a joke and that is because of the term "neutral".
Now as for a resolution....well we all know the resolution, but that is not what ISS is founded on. That I respect and that, as I work for the ISSN, is somthing i will defend. But alot of corps see this as a crutch. It kinda makes us neutered for lack of a better term.
We try to discuss and rationalize the situations...that is pointless. Since we dont take more aggressive means of action, outside of hiring mercs, then we need to shore up what we have. Keep KDF and Borealis camped as much as we can. We cant control the corridors, as much as we would like to. Keep ops going when we can and that is about all we can do. The charter limits us as far as what we can openly do as far as aggressions go, so we just have to work with what we got.
Then from The Major again. Intersting stuff and some good, if rather obivous advice:
KDF will get better. Starting with BoB killing Stain, Huzzah and Fix will probably reconcile their differences for a while and with Huzzah having broken all ties with SA ISS can probably arrange to move starbases back into the old FAST area.
The only people we need to worry about in the immediate future are the Curse show. Sadly they are many and obnoxious and really have nothing better to do than pick on ISS. Since nobody in Curse can hold space they have had no use for cap ships. However since we moved in we became a big allegedly "easy" target for them to start justifying new toys around.
Simple fact: When The [5] attacked D7 recently they only managed to kill OFFLINE starbases and it took them 11 Dreadnaughts to do it. The Curse boys aren't in any position to muster even that much firepower at short notice.
KDF is one of the most secure systems in Eve in terms of sovriegnty, nobody can rush in some large towers with enough fuel for a week to override our sovriegnty as there are no moons left to put towers up.
The worst we have to face are the camps and smack talk. And that's not exactly 23/7. And if the worst comes to the worst... well that's what Mercenaries are for. In the meantime: Grab a shuttle for scout and use HED-GP, it's only ever camped by schoolkids so just avoid it during peak hours.
And finally the big boys (and girls) take notice. Platina, leader of ISSN:
Good responses to this thread. as for a diplomatic solution, there is none. Its been tried and failed. as for stain, they are KOS. feel free to kill as many as you can in as short a time as possible. you wont have the chance much longer; they are in the process of recieving an eviction notice
scout ahead, use bm's, dont travel at peak hours, and check map for ships destroyed in the last hour. these things make traveling in 0.0, anywhere, safe and easy. as for the CC cap ship fleet, we are currently putting measures in place to prevent even a large dread/bs fleet from destroying even one of the three large fortress POS in KDF. to gain sovereighty requires 2/3 to be destroyed, and large towers put up in their stead. after that, these large towers must keep sovereignty for 5 days before marginis itself can be assaulted.
Marginis will not fall. we must simply find new and improved ways of dealing with the frequent raids and camps; we are in the process of doing this. good luck and watch your 6
And my fav bit, since it is from the Count himself:
This makes for excellent reading Friz, well done. I've noticed that Eve players tend to be quite quick to flame with 'zOMG N00B' and accusations of 'Carebear'. The first reply pretty much reinforces this, but the rest of the thread seems uncharacteristically productive. I just wish I had enough time to be involved enough to contribute myself.
