Gaming Classic or Unwarranted Nostalgia

[Dog Pants]

From the Gaming Philanthropy thread; Buzz and I disagree on the modern playability of a few games, like Cannon Fodder, Syndicate and Sensi Soccer. So lets discuss that separately here.

For me Cannon Fodder was, on revisiting, frustrating. I remember what sold it for me the first time round was the sense of humour and level design, and that hasn't changed, but the core gameplay wasn't all that good and the graphics and interface have aged to such a point that they are detrimental to the experience. Syndicate has a similar problem for me. I still consider it a hugely important game, pioneering open level design, a dark cyberpunk setting, and a persistent campaign structure, but the actual core gameplay wouldn't amount to much more than a free Flash game today. Not to say I approve of the modern FPS tie-in (I can't bring myself to say remake, or reboot) either, but the time for Syndicate to be fresh and interesting has gone. The principles of the games are still relevant, but the actual games themselves feel shonky and primitive to me. I hate myself for saying it but I'd also include Hired Guns. I don't think it would work today, it's a bit too abstract, but similarly I'm not sure it would work as a co-op FPS. The thrill was in coordinating all four characters on your own.

Some other games, however, have aged beautifully. Without the clunky interfaces and blocky graphics they would still be as gripping today as they were when I first played them. Beneath a Steel Sky was great when I played it a few years ago, as I imagine would be most good point-and-clicks. UFO: Enemy Unknown is still played by many today because the gameplay was way ahead of its time and supported by great atmosphere. Civilisation, Sim City and Football Manager were good enough to be carried through multiple graphically superior iterations with only basic gameplay tweaks.

[friznit]

SimCIty, Transport Tycoon, Knights of Honour, Falcon 4, Europa Universalis - these are all old games that have stood the test of time. Admittedly SimCity is now in it's 4th iteration, and OTTD and Falcon have a dedicated fan base that has tweaked the interface, graphics and added many new features and improvements. Knights of Honour was a surprise - it's an pretty old game I remember picking up around about the time Shogun Total War first appeared on the scene. I gave it a 'quick' go recently to see if it still stacked up and was instantly hooked for days.

[buzzmong]

Oh, CF is definitely a mixed bag. The squad sorting system was a right pain in the arse, there actually wasn't much do mechanics wise, and the difficulty curve is somewhat rollercoaster-ish. Some of the stages in the later levels alternate between laughabily easily and ball crushing hard.
That said, overall, I think it plays well still. I think it might be the fact I acknowledged those things right when I started playing, so my view of them isn't of some perfect product, it is not rose tinted. That I remember the bastard Skidoos.

Sensi is another game that plays well even now, even if getting up the managers bench is frustrating and the computer AI can seemingly dribble forever. Always thought it was at its best when played against another human.

Syndicate I'm not going to comment on, as although I enjoy the Amiga port, apparently it's a shadow of the PC version. Might have to grab a copy and Dosbox it.


Thing is, this topic is quite hard to make the distinction between "good now" and "good at the time" mostly because some of it is personal preference, but also because games themselves often sit on the fence. Take Mafia 1 for example, it's great despite the shonky mechanics, and replaying it makes it clear that the story and atmosphere really saves the game, while the flaws become even more glaringly obvious as you're fully aware of them.

I think the big thing when looking back is you remember the fact they were engaging and entertaining first time around, but now you're also looking for faults, rather then just experiencing the games.

Really, I think it all boils down to mechanics. It's the reason why I tend to go back and play games like Oni or X-Wing Alliance every few years even though I know the stories inside out.

[Dog Pants]

Are you talking about Sensible World of Soccer? I only played the original (and the incredibly fun Cannon Soccer), although if I'm being honest I can't hand on heart say I wouldn't enjoy it today. Mafia, on the other hand, I thought was bloody awful on release. It just felt like a very badly controlled GTA to me. The storyline didn't even get the opportunity to save it.

[Grimmie]

I find it usually boils down to wearing rose-tinted nostalgia goggles as mentioned in my GameRanger gush, earlier. However, I agree with pants that sometimes things just don't age wonderfully.

I can't quite bring myself to play the original AOE, the inability to queue units is massively frustrating, and the path-finding is atrocious (the expansion fixes these, I know). Even AOE2 gave me frustration last night when farms had to be manually refreshed, something most modern RTS games have abolished in favour of an unlimited food supply and resources-per-second.. .. .. /ramble /tangent.

In short, some games age well, but it helps if you nerded over them hardcore when you first had the game.

[Thompy]

I've been racking my brains to think of a game I played that might be considered old enough for this, as I didn't play much at all before the Mega Drive. Anyway, I'm a go with Ghouls 'n Ghosts, which I played on said MD but was previously an arcade game. It was also on other earlier consoles (Amstrad CPC, Commodore Amiga, Atari ST, Commodore 64 and ZX Spectrum) but lo-fi'ified. I haven't actually played it since back then, but I just feel it would still be good, given it stills looks ok with the cartoony graphics, solid platforming mechanics and was ungodly hard (at the time anyway when I must of been no older than 10). Perhaps Ghouls 'n Goblins should be considered as it's almost identical in gameplay, but I never played it so can't comment.

Edit: Watching that video, at 3:30 the boss reminded me of Ghostbusters, Mega Drive version, so I'll stick that in here too.

[FatherJack]

Are you talking about Sensible World of Soccer? I only played the original (and the incredibly fun Cannon Soccer), although if I'm being honest I can't hand on heart say I wouldn't enjoy it today. Mafia, on the other hand, I thought was bloody awful on release. It just felt like a very badly controlled GTA to me. The storyline didn't even get the opportunity to save it.

"Sensible Soccer" started out as Microprose Soccer on the C64, made by Sensible Software. It was highly regarded as a more arcadey (it was top down, instead of pitch-side view) football game compared to Commodore's own International Soccer which was a debut cartridge title. The focus on the ball and controlling it was praised over Commodore's lack of nuance.


Microprose Soccer


International Soccer

I much preferred the clean, non-dithered view of the earlier game, although it did mean that green teams were partially invisible. I shouldn't like to play either of them now, though - though they would both be fine as management games.


Mafia I loved on release, and played it to death despite its flaws. I've since revisited and found the controls frustrating in the extreme, until I switched to a joypad (for the driving bits) - then it was great again. There's just something so appealling about cars that will only go about 40 miles an hour, but that at that speed are still complete death traps you can so easily lose control of, while the cheery music parps and tootles on regardless in the background. With the joypad, I even managed to win the infamous race, legitimately.


I pulled out Cannon Fodder - I think a Megadrive version - not too long ago, and still found it pretty fun, although it got too hard for me quite quickly. I certainly enjoyed it more than when a recent trip down nostalgia lane led me to Jagged Alliance's door, a game I used to enjoy far more.


I never actually liked Syndicate to begin with, finding the interface/difficulty too much of a barrier to discovering what it was actually about.


In other news Towns could probably be made on a C64, and I haven't been able to stop playing it since last week. The one that have aged best, as noted are ones that haven't changed very much. The core of Football Manager is virtually identical, and turn-based strategy games - and by extension Final Fantasy - have their origins in the D&D Gold Box series and earlier, as do real-time strategy games and RPGs. Theme Park has been copied many times, but the original had nearly everything in it that you see in more modern releases.

[buzzmong]

Oh gawd, International Soccer, I recall it wasn't very good . As an aside, I've actually got an original release cartridge of that a few feet away in my cupboard.
I much perferred Football Manager even if was a management game rather than a direct player control game.

[Thompy]

Re: soccer games, we had World Cup Italia '90. Do not want play.

[Dog Pants]

"Sensible Soccer" started out as Microprose Soccer on the C64, made by Sensible Software.

Microprose Soccer I had on the 64 and it was probably the most agreeable football game I had on the platform. I can see the relationship to Sensible Soccer in that they're top-down, but Sensible was a lot faster and arcadey, and also had the Sensible Software sense of humour.