Thoughts required, as I have lost all perspective

[Joose]

You remember me making everyones brain hurt a little while ago with some maths questions around probability and dice? This is related to that.

Ive been working on an idea which basically came about because I thought it would be good to design an RPG system *specifically* to cater to the tastes of 5punkers. The criteria I came up with are:

Simple: although there are a couple of us here who quite like needlessly complex rools, I think overall we prefer things to be easy to get to grips with, so we can play the damn game rather than commit something the size of a law textbook to memory. So simplicity will be the number one thing. Ideally, im aiming for something that you could introduce a total RPG noob to, and start playing pretty much straight away.

Fun/comedic: We manage to make even the grittiest, darkest setting full of lols and silliness, so it might as well be a setting that is kinda that way inclined anyway. That being said, I think something that was just entirely silly would get old, fast. So, something that has the potential for silly, but also the potential for decent storytelling.

Flexability/creativity: We are quite a creative bunch, so a system that allows that to be used would be good. As I was thinking it through, one of the things that came to mind was Bobbins' levitating quadraplegic mage. It needs to be something that can allow us to just spam out some generic doods and start playing if we want, but that also allows us to go mental and play as something entertainingly hatstand.

Easy to make: Im a bugger for projects I start ending up kind of fractal, just getting more and more complex and lengthy the more I think about them. I want to actually get this finished and playable as fast as reasonably possible, so it cant be too complicated or requre too much work.

After mulling a few options over, I settled on a super-hero RPG. There are a couple out there already, but they are either hideously complex (the HERO system, for example, has some situations that require logarithmic functions), or a bit too restrictive (play as any of a dozen hero classes! Do exactly as the game designer wants you to, and no more!) I think that a super hero RPG done right could be perfect: you can keep the rules simple by making things a bit abstract and film logic like, anyone who played City of Heros know that it can be fun, silly and hugely creative, and the writing side of it ca be kept minamal by just setting it in the present day, real world (but with, you know, superpowers).

So, here are the things I have worked out so far:

A lot of things that are in other RPGs will be trimmed out for the sake of ease and fun. For example, there will be no ammo. Tracking how many bullets are in your gun, or how many you are carrying is not fun. Running out of ammo mid fight because you forgot to reload is not fun. Not only that, everyone tends to reload between fights anyway, fights rarely last a whole clip, and bullets tend to be so cheap as to be essentially free. Its needless admin that adds nothing to the game, so its out. There will still be a chance of running out of ammo, but it will be a "you have fucked the attack roll with your pistol slightly. out of ammo! waste the combat turn reloading" style of thing.

On a related note, I've been using a standard for testing how easy to follow the rules are. Its the "Does Mrs Joose Understand" test. I tell the mrs, and if she doesnt get it straight away, then it needs fixing. For example, although I quite liked the xd6+y system we talked about in the other thread, when I presented this idea to Mrs Joose, her initial response was "whaaa?" Even after I had explained how it worked, she pointed out that its still pretty hard to get to grips with. For instance, if you tell someone "Guy A has strength 1, guy B has strength 2" its pretty obvious which guy is stronger, and by how much. However, get someone who is not familiar to the system and ask them which one is stronger, guy A with 1d6+2 or guy B with 2d6+1, and its less clear. Once you get your head around that, there are still complications: I know 1d6+2 is less than 2d6, but how much less? is it significantly less, or just marginally less? What exactly would double the strength of 4d6+2 be? I understand the system, and could work it out eventually, but its not immediately obvious. It should be, so I'm going back to a simpler sytem: a test is a dicepool, and if you start getting into silly numbers, you can start deviding everything by ten. Its not perfect, but its easy to understand.

Super powers are built like characters. In technical beardy terms, im decoupling the fluff from the crunch. In normal person terms, im making the rules and stats for things seperate from how they are described. So, for example, if you want a pistol, you give your character a medium ranged attack that does x peircing damage. Or you could have mind bullets that are a medium ranged attack that does x peircing damage. Or you could have a crossbow that is a medium ranged attack that does x peircing damage. Or you could fire angry bees from your nipples as a medium ranged attack that does x peircing damage. You get the point: the description of what it looks like, or what it manifests as doesnt need to be inherantly linked to the rules for that thing. This way, you get a bunch of options that all have points values assigned to them, and you put those options together to build your characters powers.

So far for the power options ive got things like range (self, melee, short, medium, long, extreme, infinate), whether it needs LOS or not, damage types (piercing, bashing, cutting, fire, electrical etc), and a bunch of other more random things, like "Instill emotion" with Fear, love, despair etc as options, telekinesis, shapeshifting, and some others. Im basically going through all the comic characters I can think of and reverse engineering their powers into the component parts. Ive not started assigning costs to things yet, as im not yet sure on how to.

One thing ive been mulling over today is whether characters actually need atributes or not. I was going to have the standard dexterity, intelligence, strength etc, but then it occured to me: is it needed? You could just make everything, from shooting a gun to punching someone to working something out, be a power. Then you just need some kind of standard, "baseline human" roll for when people want to do something they dont have a specific power for. I cant think of any reason not to do this off the top of my head, but its such a radical departure from the RPG norm that I cant help but be a little scared of it. Ive already done away with equipment by making them powers, is getting rid of attributes a step too far?

What do you guys think, either of the attributes thing or any of the other stuff ive spluffed out here?

[shot2bits]

I cant think of any reason getting rid of the attribute building would seriously hinder the game, it gets rid of a level of character development but from the sounds of things you want that to be done from the powers with the players adding as much or as little fluff as they like onto them, unless you want power rolls based of character stats which means people are more likely to want to powerbuild so their character isnt shit and that makes it less simple as you need to know what stats relate to what powers and which power types your going to want later on.

personally i like the idea of just advancing your character through gaining new powers and/or making your current powers stronger and more impressive.

how would the baseline human stats work? would you just roll xd6 (x being the amount of attributes) and put them where you see fit? or would they be based off the type of powers your character used?

[Joose]

personally i like the idea of just advancing your character through gaining new powers and/or making your current powers stronger and more impressive.

Thats pretty much my thoughts on the matter too...

how would the baseline human stats work? would you just roll xd6 (x being the amount of attributes) and put them where you see fit? or would they be based off the type of powers your character used?

...and that is where things become a little unglued.

What im thinking is that in a normal RPG, attributes are linked to stuff. So, for example, the amount of damage you do in melee might be linked to your strength. Im thinking that, rather than have attributes that link to stuff, why not just put that in the stuff? So in the above example, you wouldnt have a seperate strength attribute, you would just have a melee attack that does a certain amount of damage. if you want to make your melee attack better to represent getting stronger, you up the damage of your melee attack power.

The only issue that I can see with this, in theory, is that it could be costly. For instance, if your character was all about strength stuff, like the Hulk, then you might have that represented by an "throw heavy things a long way" power, and a "hit things really hard" power, and a hold stuff above your head whilst going grr" power. If they work on a linked attribute, then you just raise your strength, and all of those powers get better. If you dont have to link the attribute, then you have to raise all those powers individually. If thats the case, you either have it becoming much more costly, or you have to make it cheaper accross the board. But if you make it cheaper, then it would make it easier to pour it all into one power and be uber-good at hitting. Hmm.

[shot2bits]

hmm, if you do just have it power based you could just have a power level limit in relation to the current character level so if you if you make an elemental kickboxer type dude and hes level 3 he cant raise his flaming knee to face attack more than level 5, so that people cant just go through raising just one of two powers to the max at a really low level.

also this raises the question of how would the powers level up? would you gain x amount of power points per level to turn into powers or a cumulative system where you gain experience for your actions and each power type costs x experience and then raises in cost each time that power goes up a level? theres probably more systems that could be used that i cant think of, i personally quite like the later cumulative experience system, as it would also mean you can do away with player levels entirely and just have it completely power based, and that you can spend your experience when you see fit meaning someone who wants lots of powers can buy shitloads of them at the base level often and then build up the ones you use the most, or you can focus on say 3 skills but level them up rarely as you need to wait for the experience to build up

[Dog Pants]

I love this idea. I've always categorised games into two types, heroic and realistic. Heroic games are more like movies, where the heroes dodge bullets and recover from injuries without explanation between scenes, for example AD&D. Realistic systems are almost simulation like, and combat results can have long term effects. Both have advantages and disadvantages - heroic systems are more fun, realistic systems are more satisfying. A super-heroes game is perfect for the former (incidentally something we're thin on in 5punkybeardworld), and as you said a brilliant vessel for 5punky shenanigans.

I've played a couple of superhero systems (Heroes Unlimited and another I forget), but clearly nothing like this. First up, I think the no stats idea is at least worth a shot. The reason I think it's viable is that without superpowers you're an average bod. With superpowers you're so much above an average bod it's not worth statting. Relative to other superheroes you're likely to be at a stalemate or an order of magnitude stronger/weaker. Say everything not directly superhero-esque is just based on a D6 roll vs difficulty.

So for the skills you could have varying levels which still work off the basic system, but at different scales. Rifts did this with Mega-damage - supernatural and high-tech stuff did a class above normal damage, with one point equal to 100 normal damage. It makes even more sense in this case;

Normal - The equivalent of a normal, average human being. For stuff like damage it could be the amount capable of incapacitating a normal human - a stab wound, a small calibre bullet wound, something capable of breaking a limb.
Enhanced - Within the reaches of a human being, but at the extremes of viability. Genius intelligence, power lifter strength, olympic athlete speed or stamina. For damage it could be likely to kill a normal human, but survivable - a larger calibre gunshot, a heavy sword blow, falling from several stories.
Extra-human - From here upwards is stuff a normal human being could never do. Lifting cars, running at 40mph, leaping onto low roofs, laughing off small calibre bullets. Damage along the lines of large calibre weapons and automatics, powered melee weapons, low ranking super-powers.
Super Human - As above but better. Bullets bouncing off, ability to fly, throwing vans, tank shell damage.

And so on.

Each level being another scale could mean 1 die of extra-human power is equivalent to enhanced x10 and normal x100. The maths might need a little tweaking, but it's simple, scalable, and in this context believable. As long as you make the next levels up suitably expensive, or maybe with some gradients within the levels (for example 5 gradients per level, each giving you +1 to your roll), you're not going to run out stuff to spend your xp on any time soon.

As for leveling up and the Hulk example, I wouldn't make those separate abilities. It's just too far outside the realms of believability to say he could throw a car but only punch like a normal person. I'd make it the same skill in that case - super strength, and maybe combine it with throw skill or something for the car-chucking.

I love the idea of complete aesthetic customisation of your powers, and of being able to combine elements to create unique powers. Again, that'll probably take some thought on how to weight it, but the sheer amount of possibilities it opens up is very exciting. If it's a little complicated you could just have a list of pre-made template abilities.

One thing that might be troublesome using this system is the Batman type character. With no super abilities they might struggle. Maybe have some set archetypes like in CoH - mutant, supernatural, magic, tech for example - with cheaper access to some ability sets and restrictions on others.

[Dog Pants]

Ngggh. I want to play this now. I used to have a Californian version of Batfink called Bat-dude. Will there be a shitting in bins ability?

[shot2bits]

So for the skills you could have varying levels which still work off the basic system, but at different scales. Rifts did this with Mega-damage - supernatural and high-tech stuff did a class above normal damage, with one point equal to 100 normal damage. It makes even more sense in this case;

Normal - The equivalent of a normal, average human being. For stuff like damage it could be the amount capable of incapacitating a normal human - a stab wound, a small calibre bullet wound, something capable of breaking a limb.
Enhanced - Within the reaches of a human being, but at the extremes of viability. Genius intelligence, power lifter strength, olympic athlete speed or stamina. For damage it could be likely to kill a normal human, but survivable - a larger calibre gunshot, a heavy sword blow, falling from several stories.
Extra-human - From here upwards is stuff a normal human being could never do. Lifting cars, running at 40mph, leaping onto low roofs, laughing off small calibre bullets. Damage along the lines of large calibre weapons and automatics, powered melee weapons, low ranking super-powers.
Super Human - As above but better. Bullets bouncing off, ability to fly, throwing vans, tank shell damage.

And so on.

you could actually use this system and tweak it to work in collaboration with character attributes if its decided to go the stat building ruite. so everything at 1 being a normal person up to 10 (or as high as you want the limit) being superhuman, so someone could build their strength to 10 and be able to headbutt walls down along with a few minor stats or build things up a bit evenly and have say 6 strength and 4 dexterity and so you can punch harder and faster than a normal human, leap quite far and other such things. i dont know how that would work for the more fantastic powers like laser vision as you would need to determine which stats allow you to do certain things and you obviously want it to be as intuitive as possible which means you need it to be extremely obvious which attributes are going to allow your character to use different power types

after thinking about it though i still prefer the idea of it being power based rather than stat based and like the straightforwardness of the example pants posted above

[FatherJack]

I like the idea of doing away with base stats and allowing you to simply choose to enhance your powers, but as Dog Pants mentions some, like the Hulk throwing and punching, are clearly linked - and the obvious connection is that old stalwart the Strength base attribute.

One way around this might be to make the powers fairly tightly-specialised, so that having super strength or speed are considered too broad to be selectable powers, and you would have to choose a more focussed discipline. This could lead to a huge, complicated array of powers - many of which are just made up on the spot, but I think that would be quite fun, allowing players to be more creative in their character creation and producing unique combinations.

An example of criteria for a new power would perhaps be that it also has to have a downside. Perhaps you have Iron Skin - you're impervious to (normal) punches, knives or bullets - but you have a big problem with magnets, always cause a scene at the airport metal detector and go rusty when it rains.

Perhaps powers could only be used in certain conditions - they wouldn't necessarily have to make any sense, and could be very silly. Maybe Incontinence Man can only shoot brown lasers from his clenched fists when his pants are clean, with the predictable happening when he overuses his power, however he can turn them inside-out and get in a few extra blasts.

One thing I've always wondered about superheroes, which might merit inclusion, is that it might not be possible to turn their powers off. So Muscle Man might be able to punch through a door, but he can't open one without ripping it off its hinges, leading to him being blacklisted by the local taxi firm.

Also, the NPCs and enemies will necessarily need to have fairly basic general stats which determine how well they are able to resist a wide plethora of attacks - it would be too cumbersome for every one to have to have a "vs. superpower X" stat for every possible superpower.

[Joose]

As for leveling up and the Hulk example, I wouldn't make those separate abilities. It's just too far outside the realms of believability to say he could throw a car but only punch like a normal person. I'd make it the same skill in that case - super strength, and maybe combine it with throw skill or something for the car-chucking.

That gives me an awesome idea! Sub-powers! or...linked powers? Im shit at naming things. Basically, you could have a power option that you add to things, so that you can make secondary powers using the first as a template for free. Thats not well explained. Ok, Hulk example:

You could have a "Hulk Smash" power, with the options "melee range" and "bashing damage (rank 100)". You could also have "Hulk Throw" with the option "Throw object (rank 100)". However, you could save some xp spend by having a "Hulk Super Strength" power, with the option "Super Strength (rank 100)" and "Linked Power", and then replace the rank 100 bit in the other powers with Hulk Super Strength. Then, if you want to get stronger, you upgrade your Hulk Super Strength, and the others get upgraded along with it.

It would need some balancing to get the costs of everything right, but that not only solves that problem, but it introduces some handy other solutions. For instance, Green Arrows trick arrows could be represented by having a linked power that does the ranged attack, and then a bunch of other powers that use the linked power as a base, but with different effects. Ooooh, I like it.

If it's a little complicated you could just have a list of pre-made template abilities.

Yeah, that's what im thinking. Have a massive list of complex options for people who want to completely custom build their dood, but then pre-make a whole bunch as well. People could then either make their guy using pre-made powers, or use the pre-mades as inspiration or even a starting template for their own ideas. Also, some premade goons for the GM to pick from as well.

One thing that might be troublesome using this system is the Batman type character. With no super abilities they might struggle. Maybe have some set archetypes like in CoH - mutant, supernatural, magic, tech for example - with cheaper access to some ability sets and restrictions on others.

I dont see the batman type as a problem. He might not have superman style super powers, but in the context of this idea he certainly does. For example:

Batarangs: short range, piercing or bashing damage
Bat-cape: Flight (unpowered)
Being a genius detective: Super Intelligence (rank whatever), limitation (detective stuff)

and so on. I would say that, with all the tools and gadgets he employs, Batman would be someone who has spent his points on a lot of low level powers, whereas Superman has spent a lot of points on a handfull of higher level powers.

The way im envisaging it, even things like guns and body-armour are powers. Thats kind of the point really, it doesn't matter how your character is protected, if a layer of kevlar and super thick skin both have the same bullet-stopping properties, then they may as well use the same rules.

Of course, because a lot more of this is up to interpretation, there will be a much greater need for characters to get GM approval.

An example of criteria for a new power would perhaps be that it also has to have a downside. Perhaps you have Iron Skin - you're impervious to (normal) punches, knives or bullets - but you have a big problem with magnets, always cause a scene at the airport metal detector and go rusty when it rains.

Actually, im including downsides in it as selectable options as well. Its a bit like the Qualities system in SLA or SR: some options are good, and cost points, some are bad, and give you points back. So, for your Iron Skin example, you could just have the protection, but it would cost a whole bunch of points, or you could have the protection and the downside of having a mild weakness to rain and issues with magnets to reduce the cost to more manageable levels. Other "downsides" ive come up with are things like requiring specific things for the power to work. A great example of this is the character Sister Grimm. On the one hand, she has a magic wand that lets her cast pretty much any spell she can think of, just by saying a word (like "Freeze" to freeze people). On the other hand, she can never cast the same spell twice, and she has to be bleeding for the wand to appear. So she has a big powerful power, but the xp cost would be lessened by the fairly harsh downside.

You could even have powers that trigger involuntarily when certain conditions are met, like the Hulk "hulking out" when he gets angry. Theres a lot of scope for options, im having great fun thinking of them all. Working out costs is going to be a pain though.

[TheJockGit]

Uber Powers perhaps?