What say you to this....

centerededgedesign · Post by **centerededgedesign** » March 8th, 2008, 17:34

Hello all, sorry I'm late!
It seems 5punkorp has been hibernating lately, not too active, yet not dead, because you can't easily kill an ideal/spirit/playstyle just by taking away it's members, killing their pc's, or telling them that they shouldn't play because the keyboard keeps the significant other up when she's trying to sleep. (Tell Bubble hello for me though!)

So, what say we resurrect this sleeping beast and see what it can do this time around?

This is all premature ofc, because the well-layed plans to get Dres back to active status depend on things that haven't happened yet. But I'm not one to lie about and hope everything happens like I want on the first day, I'm more of the 'plan ahead a bit too much' type. I also know MANY of my ideas are too big for the reality that we live in, but I have been trying SOOO hard to reign that in over the last few months, so perhaps I'll do better this time around.

Idea one: RESURRECT 5PUNKORP

This is the basic premise that all of my other ideas are in support of. 5punkorp has many supporters, great memories, and a HELL of ALOT of bpc/o's. These have been put into safekeeping while the corp slumbers, but are still available. Hell, we even have some financial assets, albeit currently invested. I would propose that we start off without most of this, excepting of course the support from those that know and love 5punkorp and have the time to babysit nubs. I'll not be asking/expecting anyone to drop their loyalties to their current corps, since that would be quite un-5punky. Any support for the new version will of course be welcome, and the door will always be open for those that want to return, but I'm really thinking of starting with a fresh bunch. That way the tables will be level for them in the beginning. Also, without a ton of resources available, we won't have to spend time managing them and sorting 'who gets what' and such. The resources will build based upon what the new members need to 'nudge' them in the direction of advancement, not a complete free-for-all-don't-worry-about-insurance sort of thing.

Idea TWO: New members

I've toyed with this idea alot, and here's what I've come up with. Every member allowed into 5punkorp proper needs to bring two 'Fw4ppers' on board. Not that we'll necessarily use Fw4ppers, but the idea is that each person let into 5punk be of the type that is personable enough to recruit and train new members. We don't really 'require' much in 5punkorp, traditionally, but you do have to put some effort forth to make a corp work. I've also thought about modifying that rule somewhat by allowing a nub to become a 5punker if they recruit only one 'Fw4pper', and provide enough minerals for a BS. That way those that are more industrial/trade centric, and perhaps be terribly social, have a route into the corp as well. 5punkorp will forever have roots in industry!

From there, we'll have semi-regular non-mandatory ops to keep things fresh and fun. Frig battles, mining ops, (I had to work hard not to list that one first), complex runs, haul missions, and team-on-team assault drills for starters. Hopefully some leader types will develop from these events and the corp will gain some pilliars of support to grow upon.

Initially, the corp will supply cheap frigs for members, then cruisers as they graduate into 5punkorp. I really intend to keep people limited to cruisers and instruct them in teamwork before they start to think that BS's are the future. We all know a well-fitted/trained pack of frigs can take apart large ships easily. So rather than having them rushing for their 3rd tier BS thinking they're all bad asses, I would like to convince them of the power of TEAM early on. (that, and ensure they take the time to train support skillls, while also keeping logistics of ship supply to a minimum until we have a large enough group of industrialists to support a Corp BS programme again).

Basically, I'm just wondering what you guys think of these ideas. I want to start small, keep it simple, and teach them that a strong team is much more invulnerable than a single big ship. If I can get a group that is on enough to make that work is the biggest challenge that I see to getting 5punkorp back on the map.

Also, perhaps we keep 5punkorp small and tidy on purpose. We'll let pilots fetter off into the other parts of Eve inhabited by X-5punkers once they can prove themselves worthy of a BS, (maybe even require that they can T2 fit it) before they're offered an introduction to another corp by an X-5punker. That, or one of many possibilities, but the building concepts are what this post was about sooo many lines of text ago.

This line is the last! I promise! What do you lot think?

Hehulk · Post by **Hehulk** » March 8th, 2008, 19:18

I think you've forgotten what 5punkers are like and putting Werd into a poll automatically dooms it to failure

Honestly, if you want to take 5punkorp CEOship, start building up the corp again from scratch again, and want our input while training new folk with the option of them having other corps they could join further down the line (Not that I want to try and thieve the fruits of your labour for BS.I for anything

), then your onto a winner.

As always, I'm quite happy to sit there, answer silly questions from new folk and try to guide them on how to fly Minmatar. I'm sure Friz would say the same for Caldari, Wiggy seems reasonably active again, and what he doesn't know about Amarr I'm sure isn't worth knowing, and then you know about alot of the gallente ships, drone boats epsecially.

5punkorps funds are better than you know I suspect, and Jacks been quietly working on researching all the 5punkorp BPOs Friz entrusted him with at some point last year, I think.

With the way 5punkers went out into the greater eve community as well, we've all got experience of anything you can imagine in game. I'm repeating myself here, but that's an awesome resource to be able to draw on. Just speaking from a CEO standpoint, Friz has been there done that, got the tee-shirt, I'm quietly learning how to do it effectivly, Fea in the odd hours once a month could offer some more points I'm sure, and you've got your own experiences from running Fw4ppers.

Training programmes, as CEO of a PVP corp, is something I have to come up with on a semi-regular basis for when we take characters who have the skills and the moxy to want to PVP, but arn't sure how to, and I'd like to think I'm fairly good at it after a good 9 months of doing it (I managed it while I was a director too). Imparting the value of T1 frigs these days is actually a fairly hard task with alot of the 0.0 PVP crowd cruising about in dictors, recons, HACs, EAS, ceptors and other ships, where T1 frigs simply get overpowered without a fight.
Fleet battles a good rifter, or incurus, hell, even a punisher pilot, has their place. Tackle the big ships, shove webs and points into ceptors and deal them some damage to keep points off the battleship, but roaming like your talking about, cruisers are here I'd say is where the lower limit lies. That's not all bad news though. Back when we started even flying a rifter from the word go was an amazing start point, where as new characters now adays can start with racial frigate 4 and small whatever 5 giving them the tier 3 frigs with 1 hours skilling to T2 small guns. This makes getting them into cruisers early on a relativly painless task.

Ruptures, Blackbirds, Thoraxes, Mallers, all can be flown to a reasonable level inside of week 1 (Although, of course veterans in said ships would still wipe the floor with you, but welcome to eve narf), and between insurance and T1 modules, as well as the low cost of T1 right now, losing 1 would set you back perhaps 1-2 mil.

So even with a budget of say, 50 mil, you could easily take 5-10 relative noobs out into 0.0, roam about a bit, and after everyone had died and been podded, the corp would be out 10 mil~ (corp insured cruisers ftw).

Mining barges are not so fast to get into, but even there I'd hazard a guess that it's possible inside of 2 weeks for a T2 retiever with T1 crystals for veld though plagio to be done.

That's it, I'm spent. Hope it's enough food for thought.

friznit · Post by **friznit** » March 8th, 2008, 20:02

Few points:

Recruit everyone, regardless of skills and background. I'd avoid graduation stuff and definitely avoid having a separate Fw4ppers corp until you're very well established. That stuff is all designed to felcher out people you don't want, and early on you want everyone.

Set up low level industry to build frigs and cruisers. Noobs can do this and you have the bpc's and experience. Gives them a sense of achievement to build their own ships and sets up a good mindset.

PvP. You need to do this, cos it's what makes people stick around. I'd suggest pirating in low sec rather than 0.0 E.g. Use your high sp toons in heavily tanked bait ships, then the noobs jump in and commence rape.

Be ruthless about kicking inactives.

Delegate early and often to anyone you think has potential.

Mission runners are useful corp assets - they can provide cheap implants. Make sure they do this for you.

Isk isn't an issue for the corp, but I'd suggest keeping this quiet from the general membership. If you need cash for corp projects, let me know.

Laptop's in the post btw. Allow 4 - 6 weeks.

Hehulk · Post by **Hehulk** » March 8th, 2008, 21:42

friznit wrote:Recruit everyone, regardless of skills and background.

One Addendum to this, don't take alts on their own. Mains with alts, fine, but not alts on their own.

Gunslinger42 · Post by **Gunslinger42** » March 9th, 2008, 1:10

I don't think 5punkorp could be resurrected as too many people have buggered off to join/run other corps now.

*edit*

I don't think it could be resurrected back to where it was, but starting anew is certainly possible.

centerededgedesign · Post by **centerededgedesign** » March 9th, 2008, 1:12

Excellent points all, I was basing my thoughts on 'progression' from my days as a nub pilot, when I actually mined in my noob ship and hauled each load to station! New pilots now start w/ ALOT more sp's, so cruisers are more accessible than they were when I started. My thought at first was that the skill progression needed for a BS is just too long for noobs to endure before they can have fun with the ships, so I reversed that logic and pegged frigs as the best ships for a corp to get started with.

Also, as Friz pointed out, I'll need bodies before I can get too selective. Once we have a regular gang, then I can start to implement a minimum level of commitment to be in the corp. Also, the point about inactive members is definitely taken to heart. I'm going to require people to post here, and get an email address, for everyone that joins. Then if somebody has RL issues, there isn't much excuse for not keeping in touch. I might make a standard voice com a prerequisite as well, do we still have access to a server for that?

Basically I want to forgo the stumbling blocks that existed w/ Fw4ppers, make sure we don't lose people to boredom like M, and incorporate people quickly, so as not to lose interest among trial members, (i.e. keeping to smaller ships to minimize training overhead).

Also, wouldn't it be a quicker route to go from frig to cruiser to HAC than frig-cruiser-BC-BS? (for those that skip AF's and destroyers, ofc).

Just more thoughts, thanks MUCH for the posts!

Gunslinger42 · Post by **Gunslinger42** » March 9th, 2008, 1:24

Also, I definitely agree with friz about the pvp. The reason I left 5punkorp is because I wasn't really getting what I wanted from it in regards to pvp. Towards the end the only thing I ended up knowing about/partaking in was the occasional 3-5 man frig gang, which is all well and good, but there was rarely turnout better than that or gangs with bigger ships.

Well, there probably were gangs with bigger ships/more people, but it always felt like the only way I'd ever find out about them is if I spent six hours a day browsing three different forums.

Hehulk · Post by **Hehulk** » March 9th, 2008, 1:25

Don't think so no. By the time you've spend 4 weeks skilling cruiser 5, you can easily have done BS 4 and large turret 4, plus some support skills to go with it

Post by **FatherJack** » March 9th, 2008, 1:40

I'd avoid making anything compulsory - such as a number placed on people members must recruit, or a requirement to use voice comms/do anything specific - just strong encouragement in those directions. It's a barrier for getting people in, once established existing members can decide if the policy needs alteration.

Mostly also what friz said, particularly about delegation to prodigies and about inactives (at least in the early stages), but not particularly about PvP. There's plenty of room in the Eve universe to play and contribute without ever targeting another human player, but having a bunch of friends who will stand up for you if things get nasty is good.

From your definition, it seems the only difference between a 5punker and Fw4pper would be X-5punker access - so no need for seperate corps.

And get them to post here.

Hehulk · Post by **Hehulk** » March 9th, 2008, 2:16

The thing I've never understood about sitting in empire building up a nice corp is, Why? Doesn't achieve anything as far as the game goes, you just sit there getting richer and richer towards what end?

Ok, social aspect, but you can get that just from inviting randoms onto your teamspeak server and convincing them to set there getting drunk with you.

The days of managing to make your mark on eve though industrial ends have been and gone. Everything is publically available now, there's no more landmarks left to set. Even if more do come along, it's the guys who are at the forefront now that are going to set them. Now, making your mark via PVP means is alot more achievable, even for a new corp.

friznit · Post by **friznit** » March 9th, 2008, 2:27

@ Slinger - I've yet to find a single corp in Eve that doesn't organise large scale PvP ops by means of a forum. If you really want to PvP, you got to get used to reading them. Most good corps will have a single ops thread, so you only need check back there once in a while for updates. 5punkorp was a fail at PvP because despite us trying every possible method imaginable to keep people informed and get people out, noone ever wanted to come. So we ended up in small gangs with small ships cos that's all you can do with 5 people. It's a shame you missed all the fun in BUM though. Some of that was awesome.

Gunslinger42 · Post by **Gunslinger42** » March 9th, 2008, 2:50

I don't mind reading the EVE forums on here, but I could never be bothered jumping around alliance boards and the million sub-sections to find stuff. For semi-regular stuff a single "Weekly/monthly/whatever ops" thread on the EVE 0.0 board to keep track of things would have been enough for me.

And in response to hehulks stuff about corps in empire:
I'm not sure what you're getting at. I mean if a corp is entirely based in empire and doesn't do any kind of pvp - wars or outings to 0.0, etc - then it'd be boring, but if its developing in empire and still PvPing then I don't see the problem. The only goal I need is having fun, I couldn't give a flying toss about making my mark in EVE.

Hehulk · Post by **Hehulk** » March 9th, 2008, 3:18

Conveyed my point badly. I was just trying to get across that if you want to gave a corp achieve something, sitting in empire training and growing without an end goal is, well, pointless to your member and a waste of your time. You'll end up wondering why, and your member will quietly leave for greener grass.

centerededgedesign · Post by **centerededgedesign** » March 9th, 2008, 13:19

Hehulk wrote:Conveyed my point badly. I was just trying to get across that if you want to gave a corp achieve something, sitting in empire training and growing without an end goal is, well, pointless to your member and a waste of your time. You'll end up wondering why, and your member will quietly leave for greener grass.

i.e. it's helpful to have a goal for everyone to rally behind/work toward.

Some of which could have been: build the first titan in the game, build the first (insert bpo), break up BOB, be the first in the drone regions, and such forth.

In 5punkorp's past it has generally been up to the leadership to give the idea for goals to the members, (join ISS, co-create BUM, build so-and-so a BS, plant a POS forest), but the goals were all things that we decided upon together, with the general consent of the whole corp. I agree with ya Hulky, a goal, or even goals that work well together, are important to the corp's growth and survival. Some of my thoughts toward that point are the main reasons I don't want people to know of our financial reserves at the very beginning. The corp needs to have revenue streams to support large spending, so that needs to be something on the goals sheet. Perhaps PVP/E is more of what I should have stressed in the beginning, since basic ship fit to avoid certain death is more of what I first plan for them to learn, then up to pvp as a group. Low sec pirating, a swing through 0.0 w/ a cruiser gang, maybe even an out-of-our-league complex or some bounty hunting are all things that I want to offer the members, so that the concept of dying and losing a ship aren't so hard for people to accept, (which is also why I think the frig gangs were successful, because people had large intrinsic and sentimental value placed upon a ship, and didn't want to lose it.) To be fair though, the casual player has to work for awhile to buy/fit/insure a BS well, and it takes time to make that isk.

Cruisers, not quite so much, and in a gang, they can be effective. (imho, not that I've been in many gangs myself! I'm a lover, not a fighter!) So the idea of me being FC scares me deeply, but hopefully I'll learn as the corp does, and somebody better might emerge for that role.

So my plans are for small group frig on frig action, running missions as a group, and the pvp things I've mentioned before. Hell, if we get more miner/industrial types, maybe we'll end up sticking to frigs while they build their mining skills, but I really want to keep things FUN and BALANCED, no need for attrition, or corp ops that don't include everyone because of skills/ship costs/ability to join in.

I do realize that this is a pretty IDEAL sounding scenario, but it's my goal. It's what gets me excited, even months before I can log on and see my toons for myself. It's painful that I can't get online and affect my goal, but it still keeps me going.

Also, thanks to Gunslinger for a point of thought. Keeping communications concise and clear are important. It adds more weight for the argument that they be active on this site, and that I have a clean 'current ops' thread for them to check quickly. Rather than lots of redundant ingame mails, keeping things clear and concise here will be great.

MORDETH LESTOK · Post by **MORDETH LESTOK** » March 9th, 2008, 13:37

centerededgedesign wrote:make sure we don't lose people to boredom like M

hmm...there were a few reasons I got 'bored':

1) After 2 months of addictive learning new stuffs, things slowed down and got repetitive in Empire. At which point I should have moved into PvP since that is the other 1/2 of EVE.

2) Time Zones suck. Having only a few of us (USers) on during *my* evening kept things limited. Although, if I would have PvP'd, the alliance was there.

3) RL was messing with me and I was trying to get out of the life sucking MMO worlds.

Truthfully, RL is still messing with me otherwise, I would have came back to EVE long ago. Its not that I was bored...but I had to get out before I got in deeper.

centerededgedesign · Post by **centerededgedesign** » March 9th, 2008, 16:14

Yay! M's alive and still reading the forums!

I guess I attributed your boredom to BM making as well, since we often tasked you with setting up a route for moving stuffs. And yes, getting into PVP does open up broad realms within the game.

Good luck getting that RL stuff straightened out. It can be a pain!

friznit · Post by **friznit** » March 10th, 2008, 16:22

This Eve Tribune Article about small corp, cruiser level PvP is well worth a read.

centerededgedesign · Post by **centerededgedesign** » March 10th, 2008, 23:18

Thanks Friz! I noticed no mention of bandwidth there, so I'm wondering about the drones on the Vexor, but cruiser intel is greatly appreciated, especially since it covers all races!

Hehulk · Post by **Hehulk** » March 11th, 2008, 2:01

Some of the advice there is a bit suspect (like the remote repair cruisers being f**king impossible to fit some reps and any resemblance of a tank to), but he's got it right by and large.

What say you to this....

Should we boot Dres before he starts posting too much again!?!

What say you to this....