5punk

Is it just me who finds killing a 'blue' dread a really fucking disgraceful act? (ISS or not)

Ok, so some 'Alliance director' arbitrarily sets ISS neutral again and doesn't inform ISS, and then we use our blue status to capture and kill one of their capitals.

I know how infuriating it was when I was shot by so called 'blues' when I was in ISS. I thought we were better than that.

I can't help but think about the human who was flying that dread has just lost something worth a lot to him through no fault of his own. I've had it happen to me, though a much less valuable ship. Yes I'm probably playing the wrong game.

Meh.

Edit: Added icon to keep Friz sane, always forget that...

Blue standings with ISS were IIRC just for that weekend

too be honest i don't like any of the stuff done to ISS since we left either from us or our alliance mates. so easy are we too forget who helped us when we were no one. oh well have fun i'll stick with logistics

traveyb wrote:Blue standings with ISS were IIRC just for that weekend

If true then ignore me. ISS's fault for not keeping up to date with standings.

It does sound a bit of a convenient story that we are only just hearing about. I remember being told it was for duration of 9UY war on teamspack, by steamy if I recall (tho I am still getting used to peoples voices)

.

amblin wrote:Call me a sentimental berk if you like but one reason I don't like the alliance 5punk found itself in was the completely unwarranted aggression towards ISS.

Agreed, it does seem to have blown out of proportions (the Hobos froth at the mouth at the very thought of killing ISS). Personally I don't care if we shoot them or not, they are just another alliance in my eyes.

amblin wrote:That and the presence of Lilan and BD.

You won't find many people that disagree with you.

steamy wrote:I made it clear to Count in the convo, we actually had them longer on blue then needed, so they could pull out if they even bothered to come. I don;t care how it is spinned, ISS knew it was a temp NAP, and I am very sorry the BUMS are not control freaks that send out messages after each standings change. imo: A Deal Is A Deal.

^^

Whatever the situation with this one ship (but it looks like the pilot was being careless and was going to lose his ship, if not to BUM then to Sylph) there is definitely an attitude problem within BUM with regards to ISS.

This bad blood is claimed to be justified by Pactusa "ripping off" several BUM investors (note, not BUM making an investment but individual members). From what I read about that, it seems that some people (BD, Lilan etc) made an investment with Pactusa and it's not working out for them. They feel that he's not working their money hard enough (or at all) and think he's a con merchant.

Big deal, I'm sorry for you but that's life. I have exactly as much sympathy with that as with the Lloyds names who asked for their money back after the October storms (for those of us old enough to remember....) Sometimes these things go wrong. Sometimes it's blind bad luck, sometimes the dude you trusted with your money turned out to be an incompetant. Part of making an investment is convincing yourself that you have trust in the opportunity and those who will be chasing it up on your behalf. If it turns out that trust was misplaced, that is ultimately the investor's fault.

I for one would like to see this ISS bashing stop. ISS are as any other alliance to me. It's true that they gave us a knee up in our first days in 0.0 and that we owed them a great debt for that. We have paid that back in spades, through individual and corp contributions not least of which our commitment to the alliance when the whole of EVE were slinging shit at us. and I don't feel at all indebted to them now. That said, I'd far sooner shoot real bad guys, and the list is long....

I'd sooner this wasn't played out on the public BUM forums .. is there a way to get a message to the right people that if they have a problem with ISS specifically they either sort it out themselves or bring it to the table for an Alliance policy decision. If that decision is that we go after ISS, then at least we've come to a decision as a group rather than being steamrolled by a few strong personalities and a whole boat load of apathy.

All of the above is an aside to the actual situation at hand, the death of teh Dread. If I read that situation correctly then to that I say good kill, he deserved it for flying slack and ISS deserved it for not keeping up with standings (wouldn't be the first time.)

Irrational hatred of ISS on the part of one or two Hobo's aside, they are as far as I'm concerned, an alliance like any other. The vast majority of people I grew to know and respect in ISS have long since left, many of them to our own alliance.

Be that as it may, I'm not one to make excuses for the actions of our people, other than to point out that many of them felt let down, betrayed and sorely misused during their time in ISS. Whether you consider this reason enough to actively target the remnants of that alliance, given what I stated above, I'll leave it to you to decide.

Blue standings were set on a temporary basis for the duration of the ISS presence in 9UY. When they failed to materialised, and after the weekend of fighting, they were reset. Although not a party to the discussion between ISS management and Steamy, I was led to understand that this was the agreement. On a related note, one of the founding tennets that attracted us to the group we are now in was the entirely careless attitude towards politics. When this was explained originally most of you seemed to be hugely in favour of the idea.

To my knowledge, the pilot in question bought himself a new dread about one hour later.

If people are that disillusioned with the alliance, and can offer a viable alternative that provides everything that we can get in BUM's, without having to put up with one or two overly vociferous malcontents, then let me know. I just want what is best for 5punkorp.

Bomber: I'll raise the ISS issue in the management forum.

The policy of not being dragged into politics is great, but standings should be sacred, how they are set doesn't really bother me.

Maybe I jumped in a bit, but James posted they were blue and I have a lot of respect for James, so I believed it. It now looks as if it might have been a cock-up with ISS management and their standings.

Oh and personally I'm not disillusioned with BUM, though it's fair to say there are a morons in Hobos. It's just a shame they are such vocal morons, and have pretty much become the public face of BUM.

friznit wrote:Irrational hatred of ISS .

This is the only bit that gets to me, I suppose.

Fear wrote:It's just a shame they are such vocal morons, and have pretty much become the public face of BUM.

/edit, no it's not, it's this

You're right that the lack of politics in BUM was one of it's main attarctions but irrational hatred = politics in my book (ask the Nazis ). I'll just stay away from posts about it.

I think that BUM are a decent bunch of folks (present company excepted, of course ) but this, with the whifs of this Mothership programme justy make me worried that we become the pets of BD/ lilan et al, although I know that you are alerady fighting the corner of teh good and right, Friz. Of course teh correct path is that BD / Lilan et al should be 5punk pets

Summary of discussion on the management forum today:

On the mothership fund:

Steamy wrote:a few people are gathering funds for a MS in hobos, mainly lead by Lilan. The hobos try to help Lilan with this when possible.

As for alliance goals, I think it would be cool to do, but to make it one is something I can't decide on my own.

In reply, I wrote:OK. But equally then it shouldn't be used as justification for Lilan (and Amith) retaining all the expensive loot from from kills such as that dread last night. Had he simply asked, then I'm sure everyone would agree wholeheartedly, but citing a non-existant alliance mothership fund just confused the hell out of me.

Unless you say otherwise, I'll add the mothership to my list of income division for Nouveau Riche. So far it's looking like this:

1. Nouveau Riche - POS fuel, mining consumables
2. Lyrus - Capital Ship production (mineral purchase)
3. 5punkorp - battleship production (mineral purchase)
4. Hobos - Mothership fund

________________________________

On ISS:

I wrote:Please stop ISS bashing. I don't mean stop shooting them. I mean this fucking irrational hatred of ISS that permeates alliance chat, the forums and the slavering that ensues in the Hobo's at the mere thought of shooting an ISS shuttle. It's unbecoming, unprofessional and unproductive.

We are all fully aware of the history between Hobos and ISSN - we were in the Alliance ourselves for 16 months. Yes, ISS gave us a leg up in 0.0 and more when other alliances wouldn't so much as look at us. We've repaid that debt 200% and don't owe them anything. But that's no reason to hate them - besides, the vast majority of the people who made ISS what it was have now left.

If you have a personal issue with Packtusa or Count, take it up with them, or keep the yap yap to your own forum. 5punkorp has no wish to be dragged into your petty squabbling and frankly it's pissing a lot of us off.

Get over it already.

BD is a good FC. Lilan is ... erm, I think 'selfish' is the nicest possible thing I can say about him. Either way they are a regrettable addition to any alliance, and one I'd much rather do without.

However, I'm willing to put up with them (and manipulate them, which is relatively easy once you know how), in return for keeping a sweet deal in BUM: lucrative mining, freedom to do what we want, small gang PvP on our own terms, ready access to heavy industry in the form of invention, capital ships and battleships.

These are all the things that you asked for when I ran a poll at the beginning of the year, and we're coming close to achieving it.

Thanks Friz, for being so diplomatic to our concerns! So, if Hobo's have a goal of a MS, should we aim for a Titan? Truly, a corp goal (for after the Wiggy freighter) would sound welcome to me. We could use a defining goal again. How about a billion trit for the corp? Factional BS's for all? Should we set something high to show what the new 5punk can do?

Can I have an Aeon? :D

/me imagines ninja mining by cynoing in the mom, with all the barges in the hold, then the whole corp uses the clone vat...
/me creams

When they say Hobos, i'm pretty sure they just mean Amith. he's stupidly rich (and Lilan, but serously, he ain't ready. Can't do simple shit like cap remote reps afaik)

He can remote rep, but just has carrier 3, stuff like that etc

I've got a shed load of stuff to discuss the with the new directors, just as soon as Fea tells me who they are

Corp goals being one of them, but I think the current goal needs to be more conceptual than physical. A stronger PvP side to complement our industry, and a larger active player base, because with alot of people away at the mo we struggle to field more than 8 in an op. Lots of plans though. Give me a day or two to thrash them out and we'll put something more concrete on the forum.

I'm 100% more optimistic now than I was 2 weeks ago, thanks largely to you guys for rallying around when things looked shakey.

friznit wrote:I'm 100% more optimistic now than I was 2 weeks ago, thanks largely to you guys for rallying around when things looked shakey.

We did it before, we could do it again was my attitude. Hands up who remebers the dark ages