So, to kick off our series of debates the first topic shall be Europe. This can cover things like the Euro, Whether countries should be allowed to join the EU, free movement from one EU country to another or anything related really.
So let's have opinions on things, discussions starting and other things besides!
DEBATE: Europe
Moderator: Forum Moderators
Well the big question is whether the UK should be in the EU. I don't know a whole lot about it, and I suspect the opinions I do have have been tainted by journalism, but at least in theory the free trade should be a good thing. We've done it half-arsed though, and stopped short of full integration. We didn't take on the Euro for example(my main objection to that was that it has a shit name). On the other hand, European parliament seems very biased to me. The French and Germans seem to run roughshod over other countries, and the whole thing about the presidential elections with people voting for the puppet German bloke was a farce.
I'd be interested to hear how MJ and Bali think Belgium and Hungary have been affected by membership.
EDIT: In fact I'd also be interested in what our Americans think of a unified Europe too.
I'd be interested to hear how MJ and Bali think Belgium and Hungary have been affected by membership.
EDIT: In fact I'd also be interested in what our Americans think of a unified Europe too.
Everything is disgustingly full of LOL EUROPE IS HERE since we joined (2004), but apart from the no-passport borders, I hadn't noticed a lot of extraordinary stuff. We borrowed a few million euros which subsequently vanished without trace, it's probably sitting in a safe now in Switzerland or Galapagos or whatever, but hey, it's Hungary, any money that goes through here ends up there, and the far right party is determined to quit the EU if it gets majority. Nothing else.
-
buzzmong
- Weighted Storage Cube
- Posts: 7167
- Joined: February 26th, 2007, 17:26
- Location: Middle England, nearish Cov
The EU is an odd beast from what I know.
In premise it was about trade agreements and fostering relations between the countries, but it's turned into some sort of centralised quasi government.
It's the centralised government that I object to, because with that comes lots of added bureaucracy simply due to its size, but it's also sluggish and not well suited for local issues. It doesn't help that it seems to treat the countries in Europe as being near identical in the name of fairness, but they're not and you certainly can't treat them as such.
In premise it was about trade agreements and fostering relations between the countries, but it's turned into some sort of centralised quasi government.
It's the centralised government that I object to, because with that comes lots of added bureaucracy simply due to its size, but it's also sluggish and not well suited for local issues. It doesn't help that it seems to treat the countries in Europe as being near identical in the name of fairness, but they're not and you certainly can't treat them as such.
Last edited by buzzmong on April 19th, 2010, 14:54, edited 1 time in total.
It doesn't mean it can't work though. Look at the USA - a huge country with states who are very diverse, but who are led by a centralised government. I believe there's a certain level of autonomy given to the states though, which may be why such a large political animal works there but doesn't seem to be doing so well here.
The bureaucracy part is just true - take a city, it has a town hall, it's quite fine, now, there's probably a regional administration thing over that, at least we have it here, it's working a little slower, but it still works, now above that is the government which works slow as fuck. EU added another layer on top of it, a doubleplusgovernment, working even slower. Right now, it doesn't work right. For the whole thing to be reasonable, one of the top layers has to be suppressed (at least I hope you know what I mean) - if you suppress the governments, the EU turns into the United States of Europe, and if you suppress the EU, you get the old "batch-of-agreements" kind of union back. Either would be fine with me, but neither can be achieved, as the vast majority of people in power will want to hang on to it.
USA is kind of a different story, in some way, at least to my understanding the state governments have less power than individual governments over here. I'm pretty sure that's what makes them work efficiently.
USA is kind of a different story, in some way, at least to my understanding the state governments have less power than individual governments over here. I'm pretty sure that's what makes them work efficiently.
Last edited by Baliame on April 19th, 2010, 14:44, edited 1 time in total.
-
Anhamgrimmar
- Ninja Pirate
- Posts: 1517
- Joined: July 17th, 2005, 13:29
- Location: Saaaarfampton
I do think that the name "EU" is a bit misleading, seing as how it's collecting none 'European' members. Also it seems to say nothing off the history of the various members so i think a name change would be in order.
The union bit seems missing some thing, it's a bit wishy washy, so i think something...erm....How about United! United sounds so much of a stronger word some how...
The european bit, well, as i've noted, it just isn't true anymore. However, if i recall correctly, most (all?) countries in the EU are or were monarchys, so something to keep a link to the past...something.....Kingdoms! That'll do it!
United Kingdoms. that sounds much better. Almost familiar some how....
/BB+F
The union bit seems missing some thing, it's a bit wishy washy, so i think something...erm....How about United! United sounds so much of a stronger word some how...
The european bit, well, as i've noted, it just isn't true anymore. However, if i recall correctly, most (all?) countries in the EU are or were monarchys, so something to keep a link to the past...something.....Kingdoms! That'll do it!
United Kingdoms. that sounds much better. Almost familiar some how....
/BB+F
-
Joose
- Turret
- Posts: 8090
- Joined: October 13th, 2004, 14:13
- Location: The house of Un-Earthly horrors
Wouldnt that actually come out as Kingdoms United? Sounds like a footie team.Anhamgrimmar wrote: United Kingdoms. that sounds much better. Almost familiar some how....
/BB+F
As for EU, my biggest issue with it is it seems to be one of those things thats great in theory, but fucked in practice. Admittedly, my knowledge of it all does come from half heard comments and skim-read newspapers, but all I ever hear of it is stupid shit like "All bannanas must be straight!" or people agreeing to some standard that everyone then ignores.
Actually, before we go any further, can someone who knows what they are talking about clear up a few things for me? Such as what are the alledged advantages of joining the EU? What does it actually do? What in the name of fuck is it? I dont really know any of these things.
-
Anhamgrimmar
- Ninja Pirate
- Posts: 1517
- Joined: July 17th, 2005, 13:29
- Location: Saaaarfampton
I couldn't give a decent fact-based argument to support this, but my natural pre-deposition has always been in favour of Europe and our integration with it. I suspect that this will be largely inherited from my parents' views on the matter, but also from the fact that parties on the right of the political spectrum tend to be against it, and so I gravitate in the opposite direction. It's hardly the most rational of reasons, but it seems to be all I can come up with at the moment.
I guess that while it's one thing to be proud of where you come from, support your national football/cricket/buzkashi team etc, I've never agreed with the argument that more integration equates to a watering-down of our own national identity. Such a position assumes that national identity is static, and should be preserved as it currently is (if not as it was in the "good old days"), and I guess that my natural position is not one that is particularly conservative (note the small c). In fact, my support for European integration may be fuelled by the fact that those who are against it tend not to be cautiously against, but instead are often more strident in their views, and loud fundamentalism of any kind automatically repels me. I'm well aware that it's likely to be a vocal minority that trigger this reaction in me, but nevertheless that's my opinion on it. It's like salesmen: the harder they try to sell me something, the more likely I am to walk away. Even if it's something I want, I'll go and buy it somewhere else on principle.
One of the reasons I think I support the EU in general is that otherwise individual countries would have a hard time negotiating against the likes of the USA, China and India on equal terms. At least this way we can present a united front, with a combined economic weight which is sufficient to ensure our own interests are protected on the global scale.
In terms of the other common Europe-related issues that seem to crop up, I can't really say I'm massively aware of the changes they've brought about. It's no doubt partly due to my middle-class upbringing and office-based "professional" job, but the biggest changes I can see are the relatively small sections of Polish food in some local shops. The way I see it, if people from other EU countries come here to work, pay their taxes, contribute to the overall economy, that's fine by me. As I said above, it's the vocal and prominent Daily Mail-esque portrayal of thousands of immigrants arriving by the boat-load, being off-loaded into new Council houses and living entirely off state benefits that pushes me to think that such things just aren't true. For me the far bigger issue is the fact that this country has large numbers of people who could work but don't, and won't "lower" themselves to doing the low-status jobs that many immigrants seem to end up doing. The fact that they consider it to be more socially acceptable for them to spend all their lives on benefits than to clean streets or pick vegetables makes me think that it's actually a good job that there are people who are willing to uproot themselves and travel across a continent just to earn money, otherwise the work just wouldn't get done.
I also resent the way in which the words "immigrant" and "asylum-seeker" are now used so interchangeably, and even more so the way that they're now considered dirty words by some. However, I think I've said enough for now, and I'm in danger of writing more here than I have done on my Uni essay so far, so I should stop.
I guess that while it's one thing to be proud of where you come from, support your national football/cricket/buzkashi team etc, I've never agreed with the argument that more integration equates to a watering-down of our own national identity. Such a position assumes that national identity is static, and should be preserved as it currently is (if not as it was in the "good old days"), and I guess that my natural position is not one that is particularly conservative (note the small c). In fact, my support for European integration may be fuelled by the fact that those who are against it tend not to be cautiously against, but instead are often more strident in their views, and loud fundamentalism of any kind automatically repels me. I'm well aware that it's likely to be a vocal minority that trigger this reaction in me, but nevertheless that's my opinion on it. It's like salesmen: the harder they try to sell me something, the more likely I am to walk away. Even if it's something I want, I'll go and buy it somewhere else on principle.
One of the reasons I think I support the EU in general is that otherwise individual countries would have a hard time negotiating against the likes of the USA, China and India on equal terms. At least this way we can present a united front, with a combined economic weight which is sufficient to ensure our own interests are protected on the global scale.
In terms of the other common Europe-related issues that seem to crop up, I can't really say I'm massively aware of the changes they've brought about. It's no doubt partly due to my middle-class upbringing and office-based "professional" job, but the biggest changes I can see are the relatively small sections of Polish food in some local shops. The way I see it, if people from other EU countries come here to work, pay their taxes, contribute to the overall economy, that's fine by me. As I said above, it's the vocal and prominent Daily Mail-esque portrayal of thousands of immigrants arriving by the boat-load, being off-loaded into new Council houses and living entirely off state benefits that pushes me to think that such things just aren't true. For me the far bigger issue is the fact that this country has large numbers of people who could work but don't, and won't "lower" themselves to doing the low-status jobs that many immigrants seem to end up doing. The fact that they consider it to be more socially acceptable for them to spend all their lives on benefits than to clean streets or pick vegetables makes me think that it's actually a good job that there are people who are willing to uproot themselves and travel across a continent just to earn money, otherwise the work just wouldn't get done.
I also resent the way in which the words "immigrant" and "asylum-seeker" are now used so interchangeably, and even more so the way that they're now considered dirty words by some. However, I think I've said enough for now, and I'm in danger of writing more here than I have done on my Uni essay so far, so I should stop.
-
Mr. Johnson
- Mr Flibbles
- Posts: 4957
- Joined: August 10th, 2006, 10:58
- Location: belgium
I'd love to give you my opinion on the matter, but I'm horrendous at discussions, and as a typical Belgian I have a powerful allergy towards politics, be they local or European. This is mostly because Belgium probably has one of the weirdest and most complicated political systems in Europe, but still consists of overeducated people in suits that never had a real job and call each other names, waiting for the press to hail them as brave heroes*. Or at least, that's the view the public gets. Overall the public's opinion towards Europe is that it has towards any politics: Meh. As long as nobody touches our beer it seems that no one cares.
As for the global European matter, I'm partial to Lat's views** because I like to see the positive side of things and the EU is still in it's starting blocks so I say we should give it some time to see what happens, don't forget that the US had to go to war with each other before they got along.
*I realize this is probably every Western government ever, but I thought I'd tell you anyways.
**on the European front thing, I can't really comment on the UK's attitude towards Europe as it is not up to me to do so.
As for the global European matter, I'm partial to Lat's views** because I like to see the positive side of things and the EU is still in it's starting blocks so I say we should give it some time to see what happens, don't forget that the US had to go to war with each other before they got along.
*I realize this is probably every Western government ever, but I thought I'd tell you anyways.
**on the European front thing, I can't really comment on the UK's attitude towards Europe as it is not up to me to do so.
-
ProfHawking
- Zombie
- Posts: 2101
- Joined: February 20th, 2005, 21:31
I'm all for free trade etc, that's what we signed up to originally with the European Economic Community. However that has morphed into a bureaucratic monster of the EU.
The EU is apparently responsible for 75% of the new laws introduced in Britain. I am sure there are a few handy ones in there, but there must be some really annoying red-tape rules which do not suit the British businesses and people amongst the thousands. I'm really for simplifying politics and the associated costs involved.
Just looking at the most basic stuff - the cost to the UK is staggering, and estimated to be more than £50 billion per year. I think if we did not spend that much money, we could use that to much better use locally.
The really annoying thing is that we have never been properly given the chance to put our feelings across. The referendums promised regarding the EU "constitution" were a joke, and we are not being informed about the costs and benifits to make an informed decision.
Even if we were allowed to make a decision, i think our government is in such a terirble state of affears they would not even listen.
The Government's job as a whole is to act on the wishes of the people. That's the point of democracy. I fear that people no longer have any control, and the government is a self-serving apparently unstoppable disaster.
I'd write an even longer and more rambling answer to this, but I think it would just make me more angry.
The EU is apparently responsible for 75% of the new laws introduced in Britain. I am sure there are a few handy ones in there, but there must be some really annoying red-tape rules which do not suit the British businesses and people amongst the thousands. I'm really for simplifying politics and the associated costs involved.
Just looking at the most basic stuff - the cost to the UK is staggering, and estimated to be more than £50 billion per year. I think if we did not spend that much money, we could use that to much better use locally.
The really annoying thing is that we have never been properly given the chance to put our feelings across. The referendums promised regarding the EU "constitution" were a joke, and we are not being informed about the costs and benifits to make an informed decision.
Even if we were allowed to make a decision, i think our government is in such a terirble state of affears they would not even listen.
The Government's job as a whole is to act on the wishes of the people. That's the point of democracy. I fear that people no longer have any control, and the government is a self-serving apparently unstoppable disaster.
I'd write an even longer and more rambling answer to this, but I think it would just make me more angry.
A common trend so far in this thread and talking to people in general about Europe is that most of us actually have nfc what it's all about, or what the potential benefits and risks are to full integration and how they will effect us as individuals. This is why the most prominent Daily Mail dramas revolve around such banalities as the shape of fruit and enforcing the metric system. Sadly I too know very little, so I think the first lesson we must all take away is that as voting citizens it is our duty to know wtf we're talking about before putting pen to paper (and incidentally this debate thread is a most excellent start).
My brief opinions on the EU can be summarised as:
All in or All out. This goes for every member of the EU, not just the UK. We cannot simply cherry pick the bits we want or hover around the edges like we are currently, or risk fading into irrelevant obscurity. The UK has a tenuous hold on it's position from a legacy of being the world's last great Imperial power, a former centre for global trade and industry, and a major financial hub. But the coutry is rapidly losing credibility and we cannot rely on our special relationship with the US forever (note that this relationship provides more exlusively to the UK than any of us will ever know but I can't say more without breaking all sorts of ITAR/EAR regs). Either we stand on our own feet and make the best of it, or embrace the EU fully. I'm inclined to the latter.
However, unlike the US, an Unite States of Europe will always have an insurmountable language barrier, not to mention the long history of conflict that has got us to where we are now. It's a massive obstacle to full integration, not least because as individuals it'll be difficult to ever consider ourselves first and foremost as Europeans. Not unless we transported all the French of course.
Enforce equal adoption of mandatory laws across all members rather than the wishy washy in it if you feel like it but don't really bother if you don't like it all just take the bits you think you can sell to your citizens and ignore the rest, oh it's time for tea and medals, open wide and swallow your OBE...there you go, feeling better now? More than anything this makes a complete farce of Brussels government. If it's to work, the central government must be able to make enforcable laws and if you don't want to play, then gtfo of the EU.
My brief opinions on the EU can be summarised as:
All in or All out. This goes for every member of the EU, not just the UK. We cannot simply cherry pick the bits we want or hover around the edges like we are currently, or risk fading into irrelevant obscurity. The UK has a tenuous hold on it's position from a legacy of being the world's last great Imperial power, a former centre for global trade and industry, and a major financial hub. But the coutry is rapidly losing credibility and we cannot rely on our special relationship with the US forever (note that this relationship provides more exlusively to the UK than any of us will ever know but I can't say more without breaking all sorts of ITAR/EAR regs). Either we stand on our own feet and make the best of it, or embrace the EU fully. I'm inclined to the latter.
However, unlike the US, an Unite States of Europe will always have an insurmountable language barrier, not to mention the long history of conflict that has got us to where we are now. It's a massive obstacle to full integration, not least because as individuals it'll be difficult to ever consider ourselves first and foremost as Europeans. Not unless we transported all the French of course.
Enforce equal adoption of mandatory laws across all members rather than the wishy washy in it if you feel like it but don't really bother if you don't like it all just take the bits you think you can sell to your citizens and ignore the rest, oh it's time for tea and medals, open wide and swallow your OBE...there you go, feeling better now? More than anything this makes a complete farce of Brussels government. If it's to work, the central government must be able to make enforcable laws and if you don't want to play, then gtfo of the EU.
-
ProfHawking
- Zombie
- Posts: 2101
- Joined: February 20th, 2005, 21:31
I think you have hit upon a key issue. If you look at anyone from the USA and ask them what nationality they are, they say American.
They all respect, or at least look up to a single central government gladly, as it is one they consider to run their country, with their best interest at heart.
I think hardly anyone (if anyone at all) in Europe would say I am a European.
We do not even like each other much, never mind consider ourselves to be a singular entity with the same aims. Our aims are always going to be different due to the huge variety of ways of life, economic means, languages and cultures.
Forcing everyone together would surely only exacerbate the internal bickering that already makes up the majority of EU politics.
They all respect, or at least look up to a single central government gladly, as it is one they consider to run their country, with their best interest at heart.
I think hardly anyone (if anyone at all) in Europe would say I am a European.
We do not even like each other much, never mind consider ourselves to be a singular entity with the same aims. Our aims are always going to be different due to the huge variety of ways of life, economic means, languages and cultures.
Forcing everyone together would surely only exacerbate the internal bickering that already makes up the majority of EU politics.
So what have we discovered so far?
That none of us really know enough to make an informed choice about whether we should fully integrate UK into Europe or not, so we are reliant on politicians, the Daily Mail and the vocal minority to make the decision for us. But we're nevertheless righteously indignant that we weren't given the chance to vote in a referendum about it, even though we had no idea what we were voting for.
We're an inherently conservative (small c) nation and really don't like being told what to do - illustrated gloriously by the public outcry when we tried to enforce the metric system over an ancient, illogical and confusing system of weights and measures that no sensible person uses anymore anyway. We'd secretly prefer to use Euros, but paying with the same currency as the French makes us feel dirty. We're embarrassed that everyone else in Europe speaks English fluently (although the French pretend they can't) yet we can't speak a word of their languages, unless we're drunk in which case we're fluent in Russian. We're proud to be British even while questioning what that actually means, but we're relatively content to live in a multicultural society as long as it doesn't include the French.
So to summarise, despite having our history deeply rooted in the land just over La Manche, we don't want to get any closer because they smell of garlic and onions and conduct train strikes while half of us are stuck in Spain trying to get home because Iceland farted ash all over our airspace.
That none of us really know enough to make an informed choice about whether we should fully integrate UK into Europe or not, so we are reliant on politicians, the Daily Mail and the vocal minority to make the decision for us. But we're nevertheless righteously indignant that we weren't given the chance to vote in a referendum about it, even though we had no idea what we were voting for.
We're an inherently conservative (small c) nation and really don't like being told what to do - illustrated gloriously by the public outcry when we tried to enforce the metric system over an ancient, illogical and confusing system of weights and measures that no sensible person uses anymore anyway. We'd secretly prefer to use Euros, but paying with the same currency as the French makes us feel dirty. We're embarrassed that everyone else in Europe speaks English fluently (although the French pretend they can't) yet we can't speak a word of their languages, unless we're drunk in which case we're fluent in Russian. We're proud to be British even while questioning what that actually means, but we're relatively content to live in a multicultural society as long as it doesn't include the French.
So to summarise, despite having our history deeply rooted in the land just over La Manche, we don't want to get any closer because they smell of garlic and onions and conduct train strikes while half of us are stuck in Spain trying to get home because Iceland farted ash all over our airspace.
