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Deus Ex 3 inspired by BioShock
Eidos Montreal has said that the upcoming Deus Ex 3 is going to draw heavily from games like BioShock.

Category: News
Publish Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 10:12:29 +0000
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Source: bit-tech.net Feed
Description: Computer hardware, games and technology reviews and news

so there going to get rid of everything that made the games good and make it another generic fps then

Er, duuuurrrrrrr?

Seeing as Looking Glass's (System Shock) core staff splintered off Irrational (System Shock 2 w/ LG) and then into Ion Storm after LG's closure , with the latter producing Deus Ex and the former producing Bioshock. It's hardly suprising they're trying to take a leaf from each others books.
Quite a lot of them have stated that they wished the IP for System Shock was still in the hands of someone who cares so they can make the 3rd one.

...or perhaps they'll make an impressive shooter with well-done RPG elements and a quirky, memorable and well-realised locations. Like Bioshock.

Not a perfect game, but they could learn from it, with some of the art direction and storytelling Bioshock had, maybe Invisible War could have been a good game.

I wouldn't call them "well-done" RPG elements, they were barely there at all. Still, Bioshock was fantastic, and if Deus Ex 3 is as good they it'll be a hell of a lot better than Invisible War.

deject wrote:I wouldn't call them "well-done" RPG elements, they were barely there at all.

They were barely there, but I found that the bits you had to beard were generally intuitive and useful. Some of the options ended up being non-starters because others where so much better, but trying all the powers and upgrades with a bit of quickload/save was easy.

Invisible war was flat and bland and retard simple. Deus Ex 3 looks like a few bits of the retard might make the leap from what I've read before now. I do hope this turns out good, or the ruination of another franchise will be complete.

This is not necessarily bad - fusing Deus Ex with Bioshock can make quite a good game; just make sure it's not as crap as all the recent Eidos games. Oh, and Unreal Engine please, so modding becomes a piece of cake.

In regards to DX3, they'll have to learn from the mistakes from DX2, I just hope they shy away from the current "funky" hud craze that seems to becoming more common.
The only game to do it properly in recent memory imo was Republic Commando, which was inspired.

That and I hope that they actually branch development a little bit so that the PC version isn't gimped by converted console controls (especially with menu's and ingame huds/screens etc, we have mice for a reason), not optimised for pc cards, and actually has proper bug testing.

I'm pretty confident the stupid foray into the one ammo solution won't rear it's fuck ugly head again. You need at least 2 ammo types if you're going down modular ammo, Oni is a good example where it works with Ballistic AND Energy ammo, means you're not totally shafted if one runs out, just means you've got to either play with guns you've not skilled for and alter the play style slightly until you can get more of the stuff you want.

I'd go with 5 ammo types which would pretty much cover everything: Ballistic (basically bullets), Energy (electric and electromagnetic), Explosive (rockets and grenades), Heat (plasma and fire based) and Cryo (for example freezing weapons). It would also add a ton of RPG possibilities as in expertise of the use of a group or resistance to a group.

Hmm, with that I'd go 4 methinks, Ballistic, Energy, Explosive and Chemical.

Chemical covering offcuff weapons like Flamethrowers, Cryo weapons, Acid throwers, and sub weapon groups such as gas mines etc...

I'm sorry but fuck that. There's absolutely nothing wrong with different ammo for different guns. Combining them is dumb.

Not really methinks, one thing I found really annoying about multi-weapon games is that I had literally three truckloads of weapons and in that huge pile there was only one weapon that actually had ammo and maybe four which I could occasionally use after a group varied of enemies.

Having a variety of weapons for each ammo type gives you a choice, and therefore a level on which you can only find "Ballistic" ammo instead of "9mm Pistol" the snipey fag, the submachinegunny jumpy arse, the silenced pistol pussy and the assault rifle cockbadger gets to play in his own style. It's much less frustrating as well if you have a typical oh-I'm-only-vulnerable-to-acid boss there's probably a good chance you don't have to spend an hour looking for the secret room where the only acid canister is hidden.

That's just a weak excuse for poor design. Either limit the amount of weapons there are that need ammo, or just place the ammo in the game somewhere. Combining them all is a cop-out.

Well indeed but poor design is usually present. I remember doing most of Area 51 with a Baton because by then there were those exploding MJ12 bastards fucking everywhere who destroyed all lootable corpses and the only leftover ammo I had was a few GEP rockets.

NOLF had the same missing ammo problem, I may have taken Geldmatchers and AK47s to a mission but halfway through all I had was cyanide rounds for the Revolver.

I honestly have no idea what you mean because in neither of those games did I lack enough ammo to do the job well, except for situations where they purposefully take away your weapons and such. By the time I was in Area 51, I had shitloads of ammo.

I always seemed to have ammo problems in Deus Ex, though back then it was quite straightforward for me to blame the hitboxes

I think both of you are right. Games should have entirely separate things to put into other things, but usually the designer mucks it up or is thinking differently to the player and complications ensue.

It's like the basic backup weapon on most games has regenerating ammo or you can carry a shit ton of ammo for it so you'll never need to resort to fisticuffs whilst killing aliens/baddies/robots/each other/whatever else. It's lazy and shitty and completely necessary.

First of all: Bubbles, how the fuck do you run out of ammo on Deux Ex at the end stages of the game? I had tons of it and I was a rifle totting gimp. Granted, I *may* have ended up crouching and headshotting all the MJ12 commandos and MIB/WIB from a distance when I wasn't sporting a plasma cannon or gep, but even so, lots of ammo on me, and lots dotted around the base in crates/behind doors.

Now, I actually like the modular system for ammo, the problem with it lies with design. You need enough ammo types that you can use various weapons and not be completely out, but you also need to limit it to a degree so you can't run around with your plasma cannon of doom +5 and gibbing everyone on sight in the later stages.

This is where I love Oni (told you it works great in this), the modular system may only consist of 2 ammo types, but you obtained ammo clips, and you could only hold 6 clips of each iirc. The fun part is that the guns on reloading used up an entire clip, but that clip could be in the region of 2 shots to 50 rounds depending on the gun.
Tactical trade off, do you pick a "medium" gun so you can use it lots, or a more damaging weapon but use it less as you eat through your clips quickly?

Sounds a bit odd, but it worked a treat, possibly because you also had the option of going kung-fu on everyone's ass as well, so you didn't actually need to use a gun to kill someone.

It's where DX2 fell down, as there was only one ammo type, if you needed to use something big you'd eat up all your ammo, then you had pretty much nothing left for the peashooters.

Fallout 3 is the other extreme, as it's added even more ammo types (eg, the Gatling Laser doesn't use Micro Fusion Cells like in previous games, it's got it's own Electron packs).
On that game I've got a silly excessive amount of ammo for some guns, but that's also down to whoever designed the "condition" system being a pigeon huffing cock monster, as I'd be goddamn suprised if many guns completely die after only a few of hundred rounds, especially as they're pretty much all ex-military, I'd accept it for the rarer experimental ones (eg, Plasma rifles etc) but not for common ones like shotguns and assault rifles.
I'll also point out revolvers pretty much never fail, same for the sawn off shotty, as they're extremely basic weapons, they should in essence, be the back up guns if your others break. Even the hunting rifle falls under that category, it's not a complex gun (or at least, they could have introduced a single shot one as a longer range backup)

It also means I can't really use the fun weapons as there's not a lot to repair them with, again, flawed. A simple fix would be to treble all the gun health in that game, and double the armour health as well. It would also save having to haul around 3 or 4 extra ones for spare parts, stupidly unrealistic that is.

And having too many ammo types (or not enough guns for one ammo types) leads to not using weapons due to availability of other ammo for other guns. Fear was bad for that, as every gun had it's own ammo, ran out and that was it with that gun, sometimes for quite a while.

A nice balance needs to be struck somewhere in the middle, most games handle it well (you do need some sort of unlimited ammo weapon, but this can simply be the butt of the weapon you've got, or your fists/feet, or even a knife or baton), and I hope DX3 does that.


TL:DR:
Modular with a number of different types: Very good.
Modular with one ammo type: Doubleplus bad.
Lots of ammo types for guns: Good
Lots of ammo types for lots of guns: Not so good.
F3: Condition system is flawed
DX2: Single ammo type was a game killer
Oni: Awesome, buy it cheap, it's good fun

Deus Ex is a bloody fantastic game - a classic. Bioshock was good, but suffered from its own hype. That said it did a lot of things well. Rather than view it as "Deus Ex 3 will be like Bioshock", I think it's more likely to be the best bits of DE combined with the best bits of Bioshock. Which can't be a bad thing.

The RPG bit was done much better in DE than is was in Bio. Character development in Bio was far too open - you never felt like you were specialising in anything.

Invisible War can go goose itself. A fecal blot on pristine white linen of the first game.

Um buzz...

you can pay people to fix shit in Fallout 3.


just saying.