That's it, I'm broken.

[Joose]

I want the game you two are making. that is all.

But you know what I always question, when I hear that someone is making a new MMO and I think "thats just WoW with a new face on"?

Why are MMO's always MMORPGS?

Where are the MMORTS's? Or MMO Civ style games? Some of you may remember my attempt at making an MMO (it turned out that designing a game I'm ok at, coding a game I am shite at, so I gave up. I'm still occasionally working on the design though, just in case I inherit myself a games company or something). It was basically Civ in space. As more people joined, the game world got bigger. There were no quests, you did what you liked. There were no levels, just an incredi-complex research tree (that im quite proud of, its much more realistic than your normal research tree). Im *positive* that if such a game were to be actually made, it would be a commercial success (as long as it was not buggy, etc) just by stint of being different.

Come to think of it, where are the MMO Champ Manager games? I wouldn't play it (i fucking loath football), but im sure the opportunity for football fans to play a game of champ manager where every other team is actually run by a real person would be awesome. So why has no one done that?

I don't think making an MMO different to WoW is enough. I want an MMO that is different to role playing in general.

[HereComesPete]

Come to think of it, where are the MMO Champ Manager games? I wouldn't play it (i fucking loath football), but im sure the opportunity for football fans to play a game of champ manager where every other team is actually run by a real person would be awesome. So why has no one done that?

All of this, as much as I dislike football and only play things like pes/fifa when drunk I think if anyone released champ manager in mong mode it would shut down the world with its popularity.

[FatherJack]

http://www.cm-online.com

They changed it from the network mode of the former CM games to be more turn-based play-when-you-want as it proved unworkable getting people together for the amount of time the games suck up, and you were always waiting for player X to finish their tinkering before the game progressed.

Also http://www.5punk.co.uk/phpbb/viewtopic. ... c&start=39 in case anyone missed my monster reply now we're on a new page.

[Killavodka]

For any of you that are interested:

http://www.vigilgames.com/games_40k.php

Not a lot there, but it fills me with joy that there is someone somewhere, is designing a 40k MMO.

An Inquisitor style would be nice, with some of the ideas from our own dev team plus gothic futuristic style of an imperial city would be win, and not at all different from an SLA type thing.


# edited for added nonce-sense

[Dog Pants]

What I wouldn't be hard for though is SLA in its entirety, as a lot of the posts here relating to it have me thinking of it as some big exclusive party I'm not invited to. I don't mean that I wouldn't be welcome, just that the body of lore people seem to have memorised seems utterly daunting to me - for example it took me a good 15 minutes to find out that BPNs are "Blueprint News Files" - Google isn't kind when abbreviations have many meanings. Instead I'd like something with the setting and feel, rather than a licensed product.

Yeah, sorry. In this case I was using it as a vehicle to brainstorm new ideas for MMO mechanics. It's easier for me to visualise an actual game, and SLA is the one I know the most about. Don't get me wrong, I'd love a SLA based MMO, but it's never going to happen and I'm not entirely convinced the setting would be the best place for a computer game anyway.

But without decent rewards for continued play, making you feel you are so much better than when you started - how can an MMO survive?

I think Guild Wars were onto something. It wasn't hard to get to the max level (20), but the big deal was about tweaking your character. Making your skill combinations work, finding those slightly better bits of kit. I had this in mind with my SLA design - a new character would have only a few less hit points than a year old one. The difference would be in the skills and equipment (and even the equipment would be available if they could afford it). A newer character could specialise in one thing and be good at it, where an older one could be that good at several things and have more versatility. In that respect I suppose it's very much like Eve, which really is the only game I've played where new and old characters can work together with everyone providing a useful contribution.

[Lateralus]

I have a few ideas I want to put down in reply to the great things written already in this thread, but it’s too early and I’m too tired. The short version is what Berk said previously – I want to play what you guys are designing.

[Dog Pants]

There's a free (I think) game called Blitz 1941 that's not far off a MMORTS, but you only get the one tank. I agree with Joose though, why only RPGs? Everyone's straining at the bit for an MMOFPS, which might be filled by Huxley, but other than that the devs still seem to insist on following the Warcraft model. It doesn't make sense to me, it's been proved time and time again that you can't beat Warcraft at being Warcraft, and the next most successful MMO after that is the one which does things completely differently - Eve.

Still, there are a few in the pipeline. WAR looks to have enough of a decent PvP model to make it worth playing another fantasy click'n'hack, Jumpgate Evolution has a lot of potential as a space sim MMO, the still way early in development Exanimus could prove interesting for its survival horror, as could the very elusive The Secret World.


Speaking of PvP models, I had an idea a while back. Eve does large scale PvP better than any other game, in my opinion, but it also alienates players who don't want to do that. Putting it into the context of a more traditional third person fantasy (or, even better, sci-fi/cyberpunk), a single instance game covering a full scale continent with varying sizes of player built and run settlements would fill a similar role. Giving the people who run these settlements the onus of the large PvP politics of Eve, warring for power and territory and forming alliances would establish that player driven element, while allowing non aligned players to use the settlements as adventuring hubs would let people see the results and interact with the wars without getting ganked as soon as they left a safe zone. Using PvE activity to generate income for the owners of the settlement would encourage them to make their cities player friendly places, and locations near popular quest areas would be hotly contested. Add to the the player designed adventures I mentioned earlier and you have factions competing to create better missions in order to attract people to their cities.

[Dog Pants]

Actually, you could stick that last idea into my theoretical MMO setting by adding gang player characters fighting for control of Downtown. That's three factions there - Operatives, Serial Killers, and Gangs.

[Grimmie]

Where are the MMORTS's?

I always liked that idea, but apparently there are some and they're shit
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMORTS

[TezzRexx]

I always liked that idea, but apparently there are some and they're shit
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMORTS

I really liked the idea of MMORTS as well, like sending your army to battle with another country, who have huge defences and their own residents, taking a few days to get there and a huge battle taking place.

A bit like SupCom but bigger and more awesome.

[Roman Totale]

Don't worry, FJ - I've been playing SLA for a while now and I never realised that's what BPN actually stood for.

[Dog Pants]

Thread ressurrect!

I've been having more thoughts about MMO(RPG)s in general. It stems from thinking about what's appealed to me lately, in conjunction with reading about three upcoming games in PCG.

Micropayments
I don't think many people like them. However, I paid £20 for a live feed to Blizzcon that I knew I'd never watch, just so I could get a pet Murloc Marine. What's the difference? I had to analyse why I really wanted it, and I have to say it was because nobody else had one. That made it worth the money - I never bought any of the micropayment pets or the faaabulous horse mount. I tried to convince myself it was also because it added to an achievement that gave you a reward, but the other stuff does that too. I'm not sure it's so much epeen, as having a little talking point.
The other thing occurred to me when I compared them to heirloom items in Warcraft (I think i put it on the disco board actually). If you know an item will be replaced before long, you'll not want to pay for it. On the other hand, if you know buying it will take away the thrill of finding an item upgrade, that will put people off too. However, I'd probably pay for an item like that (as in an heirloom that will be of use to a character while leveling) for an alt to be able to get through the game a bit faster. The thrill of new items is somewhat tarnished for an alt.
But thinking about why I'd have the alts, to support my main personally, made me wonder. Inspired by the guild system alluded to in the in development Torchlight MMO, what about micropayment items which enhance your guild? A couple of quid here and there that give you aesthetics for your guild hangout (like in CoH), or NPCs who can be of use to you. Since you're not just helping your character but the whole guild, I think many people would be more inclined to pay up. I certainly would.

Guilds
Stemming from the last point, guilds are hugely neglected in most MMONGs. I came upon an idea while thinking about Dwarf Fortress. Why not have your guild have a number of NPCs proportionate to strength of your guild? They can collect resources for your while you're offline, slowly learning crafting abilities that are of genuine use. Maybe getting in the shit so you have to go rescue them every now and then (not too often, I'd hate it to be like the social games in GTA4). Give them a little society of their own, a-la DF, and suddenly you've not got a guild which consists of a bank and a chat channel, but a living, breathing community of player-customised NPCs who focus the players in a physical location of their design. Imagine CoH's superbases, occupied by a Dwarf Fortress-like population of NPCs who are managed by passing players. They mine, they gather, they craft. Every now and then they craft some crazy item, or let in a big nasty monster.

[Roman Totale]

I like these ideas for Guild upgrades. I'm on an Oblivion resurrection at the moment, and I really do like adding bits to houses I've bought and having npcs wander around helping out.

WoW would be great if it had Guild bases like CoH did.

[Joose]

You know what would be utterly ridiculously awesome?

Minecraft crossed with Dorfs as an MMO.


Make the game world stoopid-hoog, like minecraft supposedly is, with Dorfs style gameplay. The players could act as kind of hero/king/manager types, with a bunch of underlings that do your bidding. The game would be totally PvP enabled, but with the same constraints you have in the real world stopping one group taking over the world: resources and sheer distance.

You could even have different races. Dwarves having mining bonuses, elves having some kind of woodwork/being poncey bonuses, humans having bonuses to farming and diplomacy, something like that. That way, you would have realistic trade just occurring naturally too.

Ok, so it would require some genius level coding and a server approximately as powerful as God, but it would be totally worth it.

[Dog Pants]

A DF/MC crossover is pretty much what brought me to my guild conclusion. I'd be happy just to see Minecraft take on more DF-style personality and depth.

[FatherJack]

I love the idea of NPCs that carry on living while you're away, I don't play Minecraft or Dwarf Fortress as their unfinished nature totally puts me off and they seem so hard to get into, but going back to an existing MMO one of my favourite things about Eve was that your characters continued to learn skills even when you were logged off.

Having that mechanic expanded to any number of characters you owned, all learning different and unexpected things without prompting would be very appealing indeed.

I guess it would be part "your own personal WoW" where you could send minions off to gather herbs for you, without the impact on other players that would have in the live game. You could observe them at work, perhaps take control of them, or just leave them to their own devices and on your return they would present you with potions, scrolls or perhaps a beautifully-arranged bouquet.

It wouldn't have to be private, other players could interact with your NPCs, perhaps freeing them from a mine they had clumsily fallen into, or finding them inside a bear.

Guilds should be better in MMOs, as should the loose alliances between players supposedly fighting on the same side for the same goals. Guilds of large numbers of casual players should collectively be able to achieve what only small hardcore raiding guilds can currently attain, as should single-player guilds padded out with NPCs. Also some goals should be collaborative events that involve the entire playerbase, so that even if you're at level 1 keeping the kobolds away from Farmer Plop's cabbages, you're still part of the wider war effort where elsewhere Hero McChesterton is leading an army of dragons into a battle on Mount Spooky - all of which everyone is able to witness or at least get to hear about.

Some mixed-level quests would be fun, perhaps rather than artificially boosting the lower level players, they play out like the Hunted levels in Team Fortress, where the pres is a low-level char who can witness high-level bodyguards and assasins at play.

[Dog Pants]

Some mixed-level quests would be fun, perhaps rather than artificially boosting the lower level players, they play out like the Hunted levels in Team Fortress, where the pres is a low-level char who can witness high-level bodyguards and assasins at play.

That's a very good idea. In a Warcraft environment you'd just get people twinking the lowb and nobody of a genuine low level would ever get invited, but in this hypothetical guild MMO you could jump into your own low level NPC, escort someone else's, or use your low level PC. There should probably be some kind of differentiation between the PC and playable NPC - NPCs being limited in their skills, or limited to only skills of a certain type. Taking over them in order to level them faster though, equipping them with little bits of gear you've found or earnt through trade quests (clogs of +2 baking!), and maybe even developing personalities a little through dialogue, would add a nice personal touch which risks being lost when you've so many NPCs kicking about. Interacting with other peoples' NPCs in the wild would also be great, imagine logging in to find your favourite miner was rescued by another player. If it was a notable occurrence, you'd probably remember them if you saw them around.

[Dog Pants]

Another thought, which connects quite nicely to the guild thing, is to steal the compelling parts of social networking games. Helping out friends for little bonuses adds something of a sense of community, and the building (and comparing epeens) is far better than the comparatively pathetic crafting systems of mainstream MMOs.

[HereComesPete]

Guilds
Stemming from the last point, guilds are hugely neglected in most MMONGs. I came upon an idea while thinking about Dwarf Fortress. Why not have your guild have a number of NPCs proportionate to strength of your guild? They can collect resources for your while you're offline, slowly learning crafting abilities that are of genuine use. Maybe getting in the shit so you have to go rescue them every now and then (not too often, I'd hate it to be like the social games in GTA4). Give them a little society of their own, a-la DF, and suddenly you've not got a guild which consists of a bank and a chat channel, but a living, breathing community of player-customised NPCs who focus the players in a physical location of their design. Imagine CoH's superbases, occupied by a Dwarf Fortress-like population of NPCs who are managed by passing players. They mine, they gather, they craft. Every now and then they craft some crazy item, or let in a big nasty monster.

The guild villages of AOC were one of the things that kept me in it longer than most others. To actually see all the stuff we collected turned into buildings (hilariously broken buildings as it happens) was fun, but then they became populated and as your village grew you'd get whores at the pub, chickens scratching in the dirt and guards doing irregular and lazy patrolling. It made the rest of it a bit less shit.

To watch a guild village/outpost/castle/whatever in development and know you'll build some houses etc and some npc's move in and that they'll bring skills like maybe bakers, blacksmiths etc would be great. Even if they didn't impact much upon player gear but instead helped the guild by generating raw resource that could be bought and sold and then turned into things by crafter pc's. Like if you picked a coastal instance you got shitloads of fishermen living in your town and you sold server wide famous shrimp cocktails.

[Dog Pants]

Speaking of AoC, apparently Rise of the Godslayer is actually rather good.