5punk

I suspect that most people here can't really hear the difference. Even among those who can, although I'm not narrow minded enough to assume everyone is as insensitive as I am (we are, it seems), I doubt it makes a huge difference. Years of factory work, night clubs, and gunfire have left me with what I would consider to be less than satisfactory hearing. Nothing debilitating, just a dulling and ringing. I can still spot a miss in timing or pitch better than many people though. I digress though. I keep my Audigy for two reasons - the rapidly evaporating evidence that on-board is a worse option, and nostalgic techno-snobbery that makes me feel good for haing an 11 year old piece of hardware in my pretty current gaming PC rig.

Thinking out loud a bit:

I wonder if to a degree you have to learn to hear more than just the obvious. Certainly with music, you can listen to a track forever, but only once you apply nice hardware, do you hear everything that's there, even down to musicians counting in. (I was an audiosceptic long ago, so trust me that this happens)

It's probably, as Joose said, like going from SD to HD tv, but for your ears, and not likely to suit everyone (due to crappy hearing)

I also think to some degree, it's more like training your palate for foodies, it's not that you totally lack the ability, it's just that if you eat junk food 7 days a week, your sense of taste becomes dulled, but you can train yourself to taste properly (I know I'm arguing this as someone with not much sense of smell, directed at someone with no sense of smell )

But I think it's similar for hearing, if you use cheap earbuds, listen to 128kbps MP3s cranked to 11, a few weeks with something better that would probably change your tastes a little.


Obviously, there's different levels of function in everyone's senses, even in people with nothing obviously broken, but I also think with more subjective stuff you can train yourself to some degree.

I don't have a proper high quality audio setup for two reasons. First I've never really been able to justify spending that kind of money (though for music listening I will spend as much as I can really). Second I'm rather apathetic about it much of the time. I just can't be bothered to care often as not.

I do have a pair of these headphones for gaming though which are decent enough, and I just bought a pair of Shure SE310's for music listening as my old E3g's were kinda busted. I don't have decent speakers because I almost never use the instead of my headphones.

I have the X-Fi Xtreme Gamer Fatal1ty Pro soundcard, but I confess I bought it mostly for performance in games rather than sound quality. I use none of the apps or sound modes which come with it, just the basic drivers.

I use the speakers in my monitor mostly, but for TS I generally use a Creative HS-300 headset - they are cheap and nearly broken, the sound can cut out in one ear when I touch the volume knob and really need replacing, but they are convenient, comfortable and I don't care enough about them (plus they're small enough) to rip them off my head and drop them on the desk when I go to grab a beer. I plug them into the bottom of my monitor, so it's just convenient to have them just there, half-plugged-in for when I need them.

I do own a Creative Fatal1ty Gamer Headset and the sound from those is noticeably better, even off an onboard sound card, but they are big, uncomfortable for long periods and the mic position isn't as adjustable (it can't be swung out of the way).

I've done music stuff using both, which is another, rather strange issue. Stuff sounds way better with the Fatal1ty headset, but if I'm doing something I intend other people to hear, I tend to listen to it more with the HS-300, because it has to sound okay on everyone's sound setup.

FatherJack wrote:I've done music stuff using both, which is another, rather strange issue. Stuff sounds way better with the Fatal1ty headset, but if I'm doing something I intend other people to hear, I tend to listen to it more with the HS-300, because it has to sound okay on everyone's sound setup.

Interestingly, this (IIRC) is pretty common in studios.

They'll generally work using high end stuff, but also tend to have crappy low end stuff so they can see how it sounds to everyone, too.

Ear training, like palate training, is actually correct.

I've mentioned before I spend some time on a musican forum and it crops up quite a lot especially for people who are just setting off learning instruments. The knock on effect is that you're putting much more stock into what you're hearing, it's not that your hearing becomes more precise, it's that your brain becomes much better at interpreting what you hear, and obviously that expands to all sounds not just music.

Dr. kitteny berk wrote:I also think to some degree, it's more like training your palate for foodies, it's not that you totally lack the ability, it's just that if you eat junk food 7 days a week, your sense of taste becomes dulled, but you can train yourself to taste properly (I know I'm arguing this as someone with not much sense of smell, directed at someone with no sense of smell )

Im sure thats true up to a point, but the fact remains: I can see graphical improvements without training up my eyes, so I spend money there. I'm perfectly happy with my run of the mill sound rig, so why train up my ears?

Put it this way, I can either:

a) buy an expensive sound rig, get used to a better quality of sound so I can tell the difference, and be happy.

or

b) Keep my cheaper (but not totally shit) sound rig, not get used to better quality sound, and be exactly the same level of happy but for much less money.

Decisions, decisions...

Joose wrote: I can see graphical improvements without training up my eyes,

Sorry Joose, I think you might be wrong there. Apart from the fact your eyes are your primary information source of the world, you've also been playing games a long time and so have seen the improvements.

Case and point is Spoodie, he won't play retro games because the graphics are "rubbish", yet I suspect he played them at the time and the games he's not long played will be retro in 15 years, at which point they'll seem bad as well.

I think the visual thing is due to the fact it's taken out of your hands, every few years when new games come out that are shinier than before you have to go upgrade your PC to play them, but there's no outside influence pushing audio to the same, if any, degree, ergo, it's in your hands and you do nothing about it for various reasons.

buzzmong wrote:Sorry Joose, I think you might be wrong there.

Actually, I think you might be

For starters, I'm well aware that I'm probably more sensitive to differences in graphics than a non-gamer. What I mean is that you don't *need* any conditioning of any kind to tell the difference between a 15 inch monitor running at 800x600, and a 30inch monster running at 1600x1200.

Mrs Joose had never played a computer game before meeting me, but she could still tell the difference between a game running on a low/mid range rig compared to a top end rig. That implies that, even without any kind of "training", the improvements you get from spending more on graphics are more obvious than the improvements you get from spending more on sound.

buzzmong wrote:Case and point is Spoodie, he won't play retro games because the graphics are "rubbish", yet I suspect he played them at the time and the games he's not long played will be retro in 15 years, at which point they'll seem bad as well.

This is usually because I don't have the benefit of nostalgia. I missed out on a lot of PC games from a certain era which many people here have a lot of love for. Those games don't look particularly appealing to me now as I don't have the correct pair of rose-tinted spectacles. Mine work better with the platforms I played on at the time. And it's not just how they look, older games tend to be harder to get into and I don't want to put in the extra effort. I'm not a graphics whore.

You'd think for that price they would y'know, not make them look like shit.

Just buy yourself a set of grados and be done with it™

Sol wrote:You'd think for that price they would y'know, not make them look like shit.

Just buy yourself a set of grados and be done with it™

I'm not a huge fan of grados, I think they're a bit pricey for the sound quality, and not massively comfortable.

Sennheiser HD650s for my money.

Looking at AKG K702s, for a change, too.

I think they have an interesting industrial look to them. You certainly won't look very stylish wearing them, though.

grado's are very fashionable deej

But yeah, i'll leave my listening to my hd600s, dead comfy. But in the ~£100 sort of price range sr80's are the best bang for buck. Maybe hd25's are worth a go too, but might be a little fatiguing over long periods of time due to them being primarily monitor cans.

Yeah, my HD280s aren't great for extended use, that and they're really sweaty, due to being closed.

I have a pair of 215s that i use for djing and they're similarly stupidly squishy on your head too. I think it's a sehn closed thing.


Maybe I'll just stick to my porta pros

Do they have the weird soft plastic leather effect thing going on? bloody horrible.