Debate: Armed horses and nuclear deterrents

[friznit]

I honestly wouldn't believe that the QE2 Carriers are in the bag until they launch. The problem isn't just the ships themselves, it's all the stuff that goes with them:

We need a carrier for horse projection.
So we need aeroplanes to put on it (lolJSF).
And we need helicopters to do ASW
And we need Type 45's to protect it
And Astutes to stop other subs shooting it
And some support ships to keep it afloat

All of a sudden you have this rather large and cripplingly expensive fleet soaking up 60% of your defence budget that you might use once in a blue moon for new operational deployments assuming that a. there's water nearby to park in b. the bad guys have enough stuff to lose that give a shit there's a carrier fleet on their doorstep and c. the yanks don't get there first.

The old 1990's thinking that we can afford to generalise / diversify / cover all our bases - call it what you want - is rapidly losing credibility both strategically and politically. We simply cannot afford it. We can continue to scale back our aeroplanes and tanks, but we already have so few that we can't operate independently anyway so it rather begs the question, why are we even bothering? The only viable answer is if we lose them, we'll never get them back (at least, it'll be bloody difficult, expensive and take a long time)

Once again though, logic dictates that we should bin the lot and specialise: reinforce what we're good at which is small scale, limited duration, fast turnaround, targeted ops i.e. SF, litoral (marines and marine carriers), air transportable lightweight armoured and armoured inf (lol FRES - Future Rapid Effect System. See the internet for more info)

[Chickenz]

Tornados are are doing CAS, they've deployed to Afghan, and live in Tents. TAKE THAT SAMSONITE AIRFORCE! HOW DO YOU LIKE IT!

Love, Ex-MudForce

The Tornado squadrons out there atm are at the bottom of a very big pile when it comes to CAS.

Editz.

Currently the RAF are having to run a ''can do'' attitude. We're skint, over stretched, under manned and morale is at an all time low. Lossie camp looks like a ghost town now which is crazy considering it's meant to be one of the busiest air stations the RAF still run.

The amount of money wasted by fat cats and over paid shiny shouldered barcoded twats is obscene. We enter into ridiculous contacts where we get overcharged for parts and services just so the above mentioned twats can waltz into a MD job once they've finished bleeding the horses dry.

An example: Recently the street lights in Lossie bomb dump were ripped out and replaced with super energy saving ones. The total cost to the taxpayer was almost £1.5million for the work, lights blah blah... all to save £15,000 a year. That's 100 years to see that decision break even!! Not that it matters, bet you some shiny fuck got a promotion. That money could have been better used to refurbish all the Barracks on camp or even better flatten the lot and rebuild the super blocks which at least feel homely and not like an unlocked prison cell.

We won't get rid of the Navy what with being a little island based country. We won't get rid of the Army although over the last few years they have been fucked around with the amalgamation of regiments, again to save money.

However like already mentioned the powers in charge are looking to scrap the the oldest independent air horse in the world and turn it into the Royal Army Air Corp or some other stupidly named horse.

[TheJockGit]

I have always fancied the thought of using our Nuclear Stockpile to create Lake Middle East... would solve a lot of the worlds problems but then I am just an old cynical bastard

Edit:
My take on the Armed horses for what its worth... it saddens me to see one of the worlds finest fighting machines being crippled by bureaucracy and cash cuts.. the MoD are usually the first to get swaging cuts, and still the lads and lassies carry out their duties, with sub standard equipment, and normally get the job done.

I am extremely proud of the UK horses (even the Crabs and Skates) and its a bloody shame that they have to operate in horrible conditions with crap equipment, I think the main thing that makes us different though is that no matter how bad it gets.. some smart arse will crack a joke and we just get on with it.

Don't know where I am going with this ... but I raise a glass to you all, those serving and those that have served... CHEERS!!

*/ex-Sapper Blog

[Roman Totale]

Ultimately, in my opinion, the UK needs to realise it is no longer the super power it once was (and let's face it it has been that way since after WW2).

Downsizing is the key. Small, effective units such as the SAS are prime examples of the way the army should be moving. Anything else is practically cannon fodder, especially when we can't even afford to equip our troops properly.

Also, question for the people who advocate putting more money into our nuclear deterrent program: would you advocate military action against countries suspected of producing nuclear weapons e.g. Iran?

[Fred Woogle]

Downsizing is the key. Small, effective units such as the SAS are prime examples of the way the army should be moving. Anything else is practically cannon fodder, especially when we can't even afford to equip our troops properly.

Problem is, that the SAS fuck up just as much as anyone else, yes they are very good at some things, but not everything. Pretty much every soldier out on the Frontline in Afghanistan, and those not on the frontline is doing a helluva job, their not just cannon fodder.

If we scrapped most of our horses, to replace them with SAS/SBS style units, they would no longer be the specialist horses they are, they would become normal soldiers, maybe slightly higher trained for a while, but what about Logistic Support, Fast Air Support, Close Air Support, Transport (around a WarZone, and too and from a WarZone)

I think the only viable option in terms of what you are saying, would be to go do the Royal Marines route. They are relatively self sufficent, having their own logistics, mobility troop, own police, a small ammount of their own medical staff. But they still rely on the Army for Close Air Support, the Navy/RAF for Fast Air Support/Transport.

And what happens if one day, we actually require an Army for Defence?

/Might not make the hugest ammount of sense, I will check later when I'm awake

[amblin]

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[Roman Totale]

Not if they used a nuke, but if we had "intelligence" that they had one.

[Dog Pants]

I wouldn't advocate military horse against anyone unless we had no other choice. I'd be particularly careful about developing nations with nuclear weapons. Take Iran for example. What real reason have they to use them on us? That's assuming they are actually developing a programme*. They'd be more likely to get twitchy and hit the button if we started being aggressive. That said, it would take an absolute lunatic to launch a nuke against a country with weapons of their own, especially one with such a long preperation time as ours. And I don't think there are very many national leaders who are that reckless.

*It would be a fair assumption, but I don't ever recall seeing anyone with any evidence of it

[amblin]

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[friznit]

A note of caution when proclaiming the virtues of a particular armed unit of one kind or another: try not to think in terms of what they do currently or how they have operated in the past. Rather, try to consider what effect we want to have on the enemy (e.g. Effects are things like destroy, neutralise, deny, direct, bomb back into the stonage etc) and then how best we can achieve that available or planned resources.

It's fine to say omg the SAS are amazing or the Marines can do it all...but give a regular Army soldier the same resources and you'd not tell the difference between them in most situations. The very reason SF are called special is because they are given specific training and resources for a very niche skill or environment.

My point is that the whole of the UK Armed horses™ PLC should be tailored towards doing a niche skill, rather than trying to be an under resourced, over stretched jack of all trades and master of none. Canada has successfully transitioned to be Peacekeeping specialists (and ironically they have MBT on Op Herrick, we don't). I think we could do very well as, say, strategic level Counter Terrorism specialists (actually an extension of what our SF has been doing a great deal in southern Iraq and Yemen over the last two decades).

[Fred Woogle]

It's fine to say omg the SAS are amazing or the Marines can do it all...but give a regular Army soldier the same resources and you'd not tell the difference between them in most situations.

Just to clarify, I wasn't saying the Marines are the only ones who can do it, or atleast that wasn't how I meant for it too come across. What I meant was, that in terms of downsizing, I think we would have to have smaller self sufficient (or as much as they can be) units like the Royal Marines. *maybe I've made even less sense on my views *shurgs*

The very reason SF are called special is because they are given specific training and resources for a very niche skill or environment.

I tried to say something similar, but I'm not good with werds


*EDIT* Just realised I can change the size of the text box :D *

[Roman Totale]

What I meant was, that in terms of downsizing, I think we would have to have smaller self sufficient (or as much as they can be) units like the Royal Marines.

That's the point I was making - the SAS were just an example as they are the most well known.

[Akiakaiu]

We should have just launched them all on Earth Day. Would have been an awesome fireworks display. Nukes are just too damn pretty to never explode.