5punkyBEEF Server

[Joose]

It does sound a bit like complaining that snipers keep killing you when you stand still.

[buzzmong]

My previous comment was more of an observation than a complaint, and after posting that I did continue bumming around in a tank.

However, to furnish the incident which prompted it:
I approached the enemy tank from the side and popped a shot into his tracks, manouvered round the back and dropped another round into the back of it disabling it. After the first shot, the tank turned the turret and started shooting at me (in the front), and had managed to get off a fourth shot (killing me) just as I fired off my third into his back quarters (not killing him, despite all the previous damage).

It's all well and good having weakspots, but if you can traverse the turret and knobble people from the front when you're disabled simply because you've got a different unlock and can fire much faster, it seems a little off no?

Besides, it's not a massive issue or a mega complaint, I'm just really curious why things that seem to be massive upgrades exist as unlocks. Sensible games generally choose sidegrades to maintain some semblance of balance.

[Mr. Johnson]

Buzz, it's a game where you kill and get killed. There have been a fair few moments where I seemed to get killed from impossible places, got one-shotted in a tank and other rage inducing things. It's possible and it happens, sometimes to you and sometimes it happens to others by your hand. That's the way it is.

So instead of being bitter about it and complaining, you should just



and carry on.

[buzzmong]

[Joose]

What mr J said. But also...

Sensible games generally choose sidegrades to maintain some semblance of balance.

This is how all unlock systems should be. You shouldn't get strictly better versions of the same thing because you have played for longer, that just makes the skill gap between new and experienced players more of an issue. Unlocks should give you more options, not better stuff. For instance, if the starter gun is reasonably powerful and accurate, then the unlocks should be a more powerful but less accurate version, or a more accurate but less powerful version. It shouldn't be a more powerful, more accurate version.

Trouble is, although that seems pretty self evident, and most people would agree, I'm struggling to think of any games that actually do that. Beef games have always been (at least in some part) later unlocks are better. CoD was similar, iirc. Anyone think of a game that does it entirely right?

[spoodie]

I think people should stop complaining about Buzz complaining. I may have encouraged it and I'm sorry for that.

[mrbobbins]

[Mr. Johnson]

What mr J said. But also...

Sensible games generally choose sidegrades to maintain some semblance of balance.

This is how all unlock systems should be. You shouldn't get strictly better versions of the same thing because you have played for longer, that just makes the skill gap between new and experienced players more of an issue. Unlocks should give you more options, not better stuff. For instance, if the starter gun is reasonably powerful and accurate, then the unlocks should be a more powerful but less accurate version, or a more accurate but less powerful version. It shouldn't be a more powerful, more accurate version.

Trouble is, although that seems pretty self evident, and most people would agree, I'm struggling to think of any games that actually do that. Beef games have always been (at least in some part) later unlocks are better. CoD was similar, iirc. Anyone think of a game that does it entirely right?

Actually, that's what THREEF does. For example, the first weapon unlock for the sniper class is a bolt action rifle. The bolt action rifle is far more powerful and accurate than your previous weapon, a semi-automatic rifle. However, there is a delay between shots which means that if you miss or hit somewhere other than the head your target has some time to get out of your field of view. The unlocks for the weapons themselves makes them better in some aspects but will make them worse in others. For example, if you equip a laser on your gun your hipfire accuracy is increased, but enemies can see your laser from around corners giving away your position before you see them. You can turn it on or off though if you want to be a stealthy shit like me. The flashlight is mostly annoying though.

[Dog Pants]

Actually, that's what THREEF does. For example, the first weapon unlock for the sniper class is a bolt action rifle. The bolt action rifle is far more powerful and accurate than your previous weapon, a semi-automatic rifle. However, there is a delay between shots which means that if you miss or hit somewhere other than the head your target has some time to get out of your field of view. The unlocks for the weapons themselves makes them better in some aspects but will make them worse in others. For example, if you equip a laser on your gun your hipfire accuracy is increased, but enemies can see your laser from around corners giving away your position before you see them. You can turn it on or off though if you want to be a stealthy shit like me. The flashlight is mostly annoying though.

Agreed, and I would largely apply this to BACON too. I played the latter for a fair while and could never decide on which was the best weapon for anything other than engineer, and even then a lot of people disagreed with me. I never saw one class always using the same thing. Whether BF3 is like that is too early to say, but I didn't feel underpowered with the starting M4 once I had a few unlocks. That's where it's unfair, when you have no weapons with open sights. but since you unlock that pretty much straight away it's not much of an issue. I've now moved to the SCAR and was back to iron sights for a while, and was at a disadvantage again even though it was the next unlock up. This doesn't apply to vehicles though - a jet with no unlocks is just a clay pigeon, without guided missiles and flares. If the tank's auto-loader lets you fire three times faster than that is a pretty hefty advantage. It seems like a strange decision, but it's not the first strange decision I've seen in this game.

[FatherJack]

People working towards unlocks want things that will make their life easier or make them better, but people without them don't want the unlocks to make it too unfair on them. The best option in my view for unlocks is to not give you a Better Thing per-se, but to give you more options.

One of the many things that annoyed me about BeeF was that once you unlocked a new gun, you were stuck with it even if it turned out to be poo and then had to play for increasingly ridiculous amounts of time before you got another unlock. It was a system more akin to an MMO where you select your basic role in the team when you start playing and specialise in it increasingly as you progress, having to start from scratch if you wanted to try a new role if the team's situation demanded it. Unlike MMOs though BeeF didn't support multiple characters per account.

I would favour tiers of unlocks, where upon "levelling" you might only gain the use of one new item in each class, but you gain those options for every class in the game, and in addition can try them out before deciding which ones to stick with.

[Dog Pants]

Well I've unlocked more guns than I've actually used. I've literally never equipped probably two thirds of them. As I said, it's the ones you've had longer which are better because you've unlocked more, and there's a lot to unlock. Once you get through the various sights and utilities (e.g. laser painter, cock-torch, bipod, heavy barrel), you then can unlock the ones from the other side's default weapon. Admittedly not a lot in it, but if you prefer the Russian 4x scope to the ACOG then you can stick it on your M4. That's variety. Funnily enough, I've been getting my best scores tonight with my first unlock, a basic pump-action shotgun. As Recon, I've never fired the entry level sniper rifle. I really don't think the unlocked weapons give you a real advantage, and there's no reason to use one if you don't like it as you level from class points not weapon points, or general points which unlock weapons and perks across all classes.

[deject]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_JIKrjs5IY[/media]

[spoodie]

Impressive. It's lucky the parachute lines are as substantial as spider silk or that would have got messy in the rotor.

[buzzmong]

Who's tunednoise?

[Dog Pants]

Crikey! That's some skill.

In other news, I may be able to reduce the amount of players needed to start a round. I shall experiment later.

[Wifeyberk]

Who's tunednoise?

sololoman.

[buzzmong]

Guys, anyone know what the ammo count is for on the MAV? Seems to fire something but can't tell what.

[Thompy]

Does it look like this?

It definitely doesn't have a weapon so my guess is they just forgot to make a "no ammo" image for things with no ammo, e.g. "- / -".

Flying C4 is cool though.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szppZkO9PhE[/media]

[Mr. Johnson]

How odd, I tried putting C4 on Deject's MAV and it just bounced off.

[Pnut]

Guys, anyone know what the ammo count is for on the MAV? Seems to fire something but can't tell what.

Might be for a later unlock?