Skill Development & Levelling

[friznit]

Clearly there is a need for progression in any RPG, to maintain the learning curve, sense of achievement, work vs reward and longevity of gameplay.

But why does nearly every RPG style game adhere to the same exponential XP based levelling system for skill development? Old school AD&D officianados will tell you that it was never meant to be an exponential curve, but a linear progression that kept you levelling up in roughly the same time throughout your career.

Should this rather contrived method of 'getting better' prevail? Are there better ways of achieving it without the endless grind? CCP offers one solution in their infamous spaceship game wherein the skill development is timebased and continues regardless of whether the player is actually logged on. The WoW-style XP grind has been transferred to a grind for cash, upon which much of the efficacy of an indivual player is dependent.

Perhaps the most interesting, and for me most enjoyable method, was Microsoft's Dungeon Siege, where the avatar's apptitude for a particular skill developed not with time or numbers of enemies killed, but with use. At the outset, the character had an innate ability to do pretty much anything (pick up a sword, read a spell scroll, shoot an arrow), and as one would expect, he got better at it the more he used it....so someone who decided to spend all day hitting things with a sword naturally got stronger, fitter and more able to hit things with swords. An elegant solution, and one I'd like to see implemented a lot more in other games.

Thoughts?

[Dog Pants]

I like the sound of the Dungeon Siege system. I remember it, but until now couldn't remember where from. As a former player of AD&D and many other tabletop RPGs I can speak with good authority when I say it's very abstract and about the furthest from realism as any system I've played, The more realistic systems (which I preferred) had advancement based on skill use, no levels, and very little scope for improving damage given and taken over the equipment used to do it. In fact, almost every other game I can think of did this.

Call of Cthulhu, and the similar Rune Quest, both used a percentage based skill system. Any time you successfully used a skill you got a tick for it, and at the end of an adventure got a chance of converting this to a small increase in skill. The chance was indirectly proportional to the level of skill. This led to a character being good at the skills he used often. You could also opt to spend time training a skill, and again got a roll. Should you fail, you've wasted your time. Other player characters could train you, which was nice.

This way, your play style develops your character rather than the other way round. It was also so adaptable that the game could be played in any setting potentially - I played fantasy, ancient Japan, and modern horror at various points. If I remember correctly Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay did a similar thing but with a rather cool career path system too.

Other systems let you spend experience on skills, like SLA Industries, Shadowrun, and Vampire: The Masquerade. These offered the player a little more control at the expense of a little realism.

Many of these pen-and-paper systems were limited in their complexity so not to be too confusing or lengthy, but a computer doesn't have those limitationis so I'm of the opinion that developers are being very narrow minded and lazy by utilising the D&D style mechanic, which is the simplest there is.

[deject]

I liked the way Dungeon Siege does it for the most part, except that if you want to multi-class it's a massive pain in the ass, especially because of how the game allocates the XP. For example, my first character was a melee expert. However, after beating the game I decided some Combat Magic skill would be rather handy. The problem with this, is that your attributes progress on a unified exponential scale, meaning that since his STR was really high, boosting the intelligence was ridiculously slow. Thus his Mana stayed ridiculously slow so while he was able to increase his combat magic skill quite a lot, he couldn't cast many spells because his total mana wasn't enough.


I quite like the way SLA Industries handles character progression. There's no levels or anything, just your skills. It works and there's no messing about.

[MORDETH LESTOK]

CCP offers one solution in their infamous spaceship game wherein the skill development is timebased and continues regardless of whether the player is actually logged on.

yah...but instead of grinding...it tells you you have to wait 5/10/20/30 days for a skill...so, you're kind of grinding...without the grinding

[Dog Pants]

The Eve system has advantages and disadvantages.

The advantage is that you don't need to grind to get better (although you still need to grind for cash), so the nerds with loads of time don't get a huge advantage.

The disadvantage is that no matter how much effort you put in, you'll only get better by putting time in.

Both opposite sides of the same coin really.

[FatherJack]

WoW has a weapon proficiency thing, but it's so trivial to level it, it's effectively worthless - whereas with Dungeon Siege it could be a massive grind if you came across a new weapon you weren't trained for and really wanted to use it. Both kind of lock you in a path that it's easier to reroll than deviate from.

Eve is more of a sandbox - given enough time you really can have a go at everything, but more often I would find myself being medium at everything. In Oblivion too, I was rather directionless - started as a mage, but used a sword for everything, then became the most inept thief ever - always getting spotted, slaughtering all the witnesses, then riding around on a horse for a bit until everyone forgot about me.

Somewhere in-between would suit me, perhaps like how Titan Quest and Tabula Rasa worked - you have set paths you follow in your professions, but quite radical branches of specialisation to choose from as you progress. Fable's worth a mention too - with the physical changes gained from the choices you made in your career path, rather than your phat lewt or the tailor's.

I do like levels, as it gives me something tangible to aim for and is a good guide to letting you know if a fight is worth the risk - but something that put all players on a level playing field would be good, too. Whatever system is in place will usually favour more active players, and they're also the ones most new content is aimed at as well.

[buzzmong]

I liked Oblivion's level up method, all skills were improved by use, and when you improved 10 skills in your major skill group - *bing* level up.

Still kind of grindy in places, but with magic you could cheat with a low mana use spell, balance it against your natural regen, and use a weight to weigh the cast key down

[Dog Pants]

something that put all players on a level playing field would be good, too.

I quite like what Guild Wars did with the 20 level cap. The advantage didn't come from grind (although there is grinding for kit and skill points I believe) as much as the right choice of skills and nice kit drops.

I wouldn't mind trying a similar system with Diablo style random loot, although that might lead to loot grinding.

[HereComesPete]

I liked Oblivion's level up method, all skills were improved by use, and when you improved 10 skills in your major skill group - *bing* level up.

Still kind of grindy in places, but with magic you could cheat with a low mana use spell, balance it against your natural regen, and use a weight to weigh the cast key down

1.Engage stealth and autorun near cellar rats or guard.

2.walk away.

3.return later to uber sneaky character.

4...

5. Profit!

[Joose]

Although I like the Oblivion/Morrowind etc system of improving skills via skill use, its a bit open to abuse in computer games (as people have pointed out already). Not so much a problem for single player games, but it would be a big issue for MMO's.

I *do* like systems that don't have classes, like EVE, Shadowrun, SLA etc. It bugs me when a game tells me I cant do a simple task just because its not my job.

[MORDETH LESTOK]

hmm...I forgot about City of Heroes/Villains...since its quite easy to lvl up...you make up for chosing stuff you don't like by either respec'in (changing your powers/buffslots) or make a new toon with different power types

that being said...its not that in-depth of a game but the leveling/reward was quite enjoyable...you could grind or you could just keep doing story arc's...now if only they would add more LvL's