Litom, IAC, 5punkorp and Beer

[friznit]

Betrayal Under Mayhem continues to provide all the elements of gameplay that we asked for, from some of the best mining, ratting and industry in game via NR and QYZ, to small gang PvP with no POS and minimal blobs. We've had our differences, and the odd personality clash, but having looked around there isn't much more fun to be had in game than where we are now. To that end, I have no plans to leave BUM in the foreseeable future.

BoB and Friends are starting to put pressure on IAC in Southern Catch. This puts us in a prime position to do all that we ever wanted: hit IAC where it hurts most, draw their horses away from the frontline, and be a part in their ultimate downfall.

Nouveau Riche has attracted a lot of people for the opportunities it affords, and with Dres driving the non-capital industry of the Alliance from there I think it's set to create a very strong industrial backbone for BUM. I will provide as much support and advice to that him as possible, whilst still retaining overall 'ownership' of the assets. Dres is fully inline with my vision for NR.

5punkorp on the other hand is disappointing. Activity is at an all time low and for those who do log on, only 1 or 2 actually participate in the main effort. This is bad for morale and the membership, and due to the 5punky nature of the corp, I am powerless to enact radical reform. That said, I have two options:

1. Kick all the non-participants and inactive people out of the corp (arguably not very 5punky).

2. Cut 5punkorp loose, and start a new corp in BUM with more rigorous selection and maintenance criteria.

Either way, the corp assets, isk, ships and expertise will stay with the active part of the corp, and the dormant members can sit in a Fw4ppers-style limbo until such time as they become active again, at which point they can apply for membership of the active corp (but with no guarantee of acceptance).

I've yet to decide on which option to pursue, or do nothing at all. But rest assured that those of you who are a net benefit to the corp and Alliance, whether that be in 5punkorp, Nouveau Riche or a random alt corp, will benefit from a restructuring. The rest of you probably won't even notice a difference in your gameplay

[Anhamgrimmar]

Gameplay......i remember that...i think......

[buzzmong]

Might as well Kick Buzzmong out of 5punk, I doubt I'll be playing Eve for 9 months if I come back to it. Uni and all that.

[Dolly Parton]

personally even if 5punk falls to minimal participation leave it open. i have found in my time in eve people come and go and there will always be a lull or 2. to expand we need to recruit. this has all been said b4 in other posts but as 5punk is mainly adult type players we all have families and responsibilities. as always that comes 1st. i ask if 5punk is to fall slide over ceo to dres or i and i am sure we will do our best to keep it going. a corp with out pos are not too difficult to run. ultimately a corp is nothing with out group participation. i honestly have never looked as 5punkorp like other corps but more as a place where friends can chill. we all have alts (if you don't u suck) to do our side goals, i.e. Red leaving 5punk to go play with Voyvod but dolly stays to play and show the youngings the light a tad. personally i enjoy helping folks

[Sapphrine]

my apologies for my currently shite attendance record.... I'm blitzing work atm but expect a lull back to sensible levels in a week or so. Add in that my best friend was proposed to last week + a solid month of full weekends and i've not really had a lot of time even when i should have had some free!

I'll try to be on this evening and get some ships into litom. I moved almost all ships up to berta last week by afk AP.

[Fear]

I'm very happy with mother 5punkorp at the moment. The times I do get to play are quite enjoyable.

Nothing wrong with kicking the inactives I suppose. Like eRabbit.

[bomberesque]

1st, if it weer my decision, I'd keep the status quo. Unless there's a decent reason why inactives are a disadvantage to the corp (Speaking as one). When there's a member count based fee, would be one example. OTOH, people who are inactive and intend to stay that way (which I, for example, am not), perhaps there's just no need to keep them in the corp. Sort of spring cleaning

I would suggest asking for validation from all corp members by evemail and culling those who don't respond. For me, I don't see why some people who are currently inactive should be excluded, quite un5punky. They're not bleeding anything from the corp (or are they...?) and if they want to stay (which I do) I say no harm.

I do intend to return, btw (TM)

[friznit]

Dolly pretty much nailed it. That explains exactly why 5punkorp is destined never to go anywhere. The fundamental problem with a slackers corp like this is that the CEO is unable to affect change in a major way or fear being ostricised as 'un5punky' (to a certain extent, I agree). This engenders an air of malaise, where people don't feel obliged to contribute towards the main effort (again, a very 5punky approach and in that sense, no bad thing).

However, in order to achieve anything in Eve, you need numbers, and you need those numbers to attend ops or contribute in some way towards the main effort. Simply recruiting is not the answer. New recruits coming into an unhealthy environment quickly lose interest and not unsurprisingly, when out of a corp of 40 they see no more than 5 people online, 3 of which never speak in corp chat and are at the other end of Eve doing their own thing.

In order to create a properly functioning corp, I need to be able to kick people out who do not contribute, reward those who do, and maintain a sleak and efficient team. We've got some great people in the corp but at the moment their efforts are simply going to waste.

If people want to maintain the status quo in 5punkorp I'm happy to go with that, but it should become a Fw4ppers style sleeper corp/place to chill out with mates. BUM needs a more active contribution. Perhaps it's time to create Uber-5punk (or whatever we were going to call it).

[Akiakaiu]

I'm sorry I have not been able to do much in-game. With 2 jobs, 3 kids and a girlfriend my playtime in everything has gone to shite. I do hope that I will be playing near as much as I used too, which is why I'm still paying for two accounts and still changing skills. Since I was sick yesterday I got a small vacation where I could do anything I wanted I logged in and got Akiki into NR and moved her to 1-N.

I'm guessing since I've been inactive for so long that my roles have been removed on Aki.... I'd like to hope that's the reason and not that I'm a spy or something. But I can see what you are saying Friz. The times I have come on with a hour or two of time to play has been really quiet, which when you are looking to play a game to talk to m8s and get away from RL it is not fun. So I hang for a bit, see no one's talking and go find another game where I can chitchat for a bit. Heck, Monday I was on, there was an active convo going on in X5punkers and I was ignored till the 4th time I said "hello".

So with that said, if you want to kick me, or relegate me to another corp, it's upto you, the CEO, and I understand the reasons and will have no hard feelings. But as others said, I'm 31 with a house, 2 full time jobs (well the part time makes me work almost full time) and RL problems that are trying to drive me insane, changing skills is all I can do atm. At least when I do come back I'll have BS5 under me, along with lrg blaster spec which I should be starting to train tonight! Akiki now has exhumers 5 and level 4 in all the ore processing skills, with some good shield tanking skills to go with it.

[DoesNotExist]

I am a soldier by trade, and speaking simply for myself, It becomes extraordinarily difficult to participate in group functions without the sort of intendance to which I am acclimated...

This corp demands of me that I scour the forums to learn what is going on and inject myself feverishly into whatever such things present themselves-- something perpendicular to my daily M.O., something I should probably get used to.

I have been playing as DNE for ... ten months?... and the best I have done for 5punk is losing four ships in half as many days to a rival corp, without ever returning fire.

Needlessly reiterated: I am... not worth much.

About what I said earlier, the leadership thing, I'm not saying you all don't know how to lead -- you do and do it well -- in your own way.

However, I and a lot of the new players require specific instructions.

"We have a a shindig at LOCATION and TIME. You need to be there to perform FUNCTION. Contact TRAINER if you feel deficient."
etc...

This sort of thing will horse socially evasive people to interact with the corp, cause weak players to improve, and the uncertain or indecisive to figure out where they stand and what they can do to help-- if they are serious about the group effort.

In my experience I would like to help, but I am not accustomed to ... impregnating ... myself into other people's goings-on without invitation.

[Hehulk]

Clearly, something, somewhere went wrong then, as you missed this

[bomberesque]

Clearly, something, somewhere went wrong then, as you missed this

^this

I have no beef with the instructions and leadership as it has been enacted. I fully appreciate the effort that the few have put on on behalf of the corp at large.

That said,

I fail to see how paring the corp down to the 4 or 5 active and contributing players will make the corp chattier, more effective, etc etc beyond the point that you mentioned Friz of recruiting a guy into what appears to be a 40 man corp then he finds only 3 or 4 on at a time. I just don't see how booting people will change the fundamentals ... that we have low participation.

Secondly, and for all that fundamentally, I always thought 5punkorp was a corp in eve open to all 5punkers. I've been in it nearly 2 years on that basis. Thus I think booting people, unless tehy really are out of game, goes against the starting principles of the corp.

For me splitting off an "uber-5punkorp" or whatever would no longer be 5punkorp, it would be a few players saying "this 5punk thing isn't working, we're off to try something else, and we're taking the corp assets (which afterall, we were pivotal in generating) with us". I actually have no in principle arguement with that (certainly not the bit about the corp assets, afaiac they're yours), except that I would be sad to see it happen. I don't think such a corp would be 5punk though, no matter what you called it, because it would be exclusive, which is fundamentally un-5punky.

I'll suggest it again; I think, as a start, send evemails to all corp members asking them if they want to remain in the corp. Any that do not respond within a week, assume that their accounts are dormant / they are not interested and boot them. If they have parked their accounts or are just on a very long train and not playing much, then they can knock on the door once they get back. Then you can look at what we have and decide if you still think we have a problem (and perhaps buy me some time to gte active again )

me me me me me;

I want to stay in 5punkorp
I want 5punkorp to continue as it has been, with Friz, Dres and Rabbit at teh helm
I think that perhaps teh 5punky way precludes us "making a difference' or "playing a larger role" in eve at large


I appreciate that my words may be held to count for little, in proportion to my contribution in game of late. But for whatever they're worth, there they are.

[centerededgedesign]

Well, once again, Friz has managed to evoke 5punky emotions in all of us, and motivate us to speak up! (/tin hat, I think that was his motive... tin hat\)

http://www.5punk.co.uk/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=13083

Here I roughly outlined my 'vision' for allowing us to be 5punky, while still helping the alliance in our rag-tag/international/RL-laden/yet definitely 5punky way. Hell, if a person could park a toon in Jita and daily update a link on mineral prices it would be of service to the corp, take only minutes, and save everyone the trouble of doing the same.

As far as the leadership part, I may have a suggestion that will alleviate forum mining, (which I admit can be tedious if you don't manage to get through all of the posts on one login, or can't log in 5 times a day to stay abreast of matters as I do). ANSWER--> the Wiki. (maybe)

Depending on security concerns, we could update operations there, to include the logistical support 'vision' that I have for 5punkorp. Not trying to herd cats, honest, but it's a role that I think we could fulfill well with our combination of talents, playtime, and around-the-clock-i-ness. Comments on wiki-organizing?

Bomber: There are a couple points about inactives to think about that I don't think have been touched on. a) there is a finite number of bodies the corp can accept. At some point we could for-see-ably (spelling?) run into a point where we wouldn't be able to accept players based on a full roster. b) there is a handy corp management tool that shows how long it's been since a member of the corp has logged on, where there currently are, and the number of exotic dancers that are currently carrying 5punky payload from them. (really, it's on there! You can't see that page?) So perhaps the corp mail may not be needed for that aspect, but it would be a good in-game tool to guage corp-related activity. As far as 5punkiness precluding us from being of value to an alliance, I beg to differ. In our own way, we supported the hell out of ISS. We did it in a way that I would argue no other corp in Eve could do. I definitely believe we are an asset, it's the common goal and playtime that's plaguing us now.

5punk is more than a corp though, we have NR, 5punk R&D, and a myriad of alts flying about under different banners/activities. The point I think Friz is after (besides getting us up in arms to prove our passion for 5punkorp) is that 5punkorp central is losing it's 'edge' a bit, and could use sharpening. New members, a new role, more dancers, something needs to happen to rejuvenate the fun factor to keep people coming back and feeling passionate about 5punkorp. If we leave it alone, it'll dry up in the sun and get scraped up and thrown away. Also of note, is that there aren't even 40 people that post on here from 5punkorp, proving that some people just don't get 5punky, as sad as that may be....

DNE: I can direct you... oh can I direct you.....
Being a soldier by trade, how about being a horse recon? I'm sure we can find a great role for you, and help you with logistics to keep you busy doing things for the alliance, (scouting, harassment, POS surveying) instead of flying about replacing ships and earning isk to buy them. Hell, flying about and shooting jet cans by miners, (and the miners) can be vastly valuable to the alliance, and maybe even fun!

5punkiness is definitely not in short supply, not by what I've seen in this single thread. In that way we are definitely doing just fine!


Also, not nearly enough BEER in here....

Now drink one and pass one to a fellow 5punker! That's an order!!

(Fear, can we do a secure Wiki on the Alliance page? Might be useful there as well, if it's possible)[/i]

[bomberesque]

Bomber: stuff.

First let me be clear. I am not saying "you should think this way" only "this is the way I think"

Dres, I did ask about detrimental effects that inactive members may have on the corp. (increassed membership number based fees for example) and the cap on mamber numbers is a good one (if we are anywhere near it). And no, I can't see any of the stats you mention, although I'd ask that, if you know how many exotic dancers are carrying my 5punky load, please don't let Bubble know

Bah, I wrote a bunch of stuff but veered off into a ramble;

1. I should have said "it's less likely that we'd be able to make a difference, as the 5punky way would tend to tolerate (perhaps encourage) low participation rates" I didn't mean to be so brutal
2. I do think you're right about the drying up thing, but i'm not sure booting people is the solution

Look, you lot will decide, you run things and do all the hard work so you have earned the right imo. I just think you shouldn't throw away the principle of inclusion that is a cornerstone of the 5punky way (that and mahoosive can art CDCs)

[Morrill]

I try not to talk. I gets me in trouble. You may question me then I would have to answer which would get me in more trouble. Thus I try to stay informed but rarely comment. That said.

1. I have a perm toon in Jita and would be glad to update a price sheet someplace.
2. I really prefer industrial to pvp playing. Fits better with my game timing as well. Some days I can play all day others I just barely can get on. RL can be a killer.
3. I consider myself 5punk. If we never had to worry about security ie a 1 bill tower being popped from war or the system I have set up for research requires multiple corp hanger tabs I would be glad to be in 5punk proper. With NR it just made more sense for Morrill to be there for now.
4. It seams there is a unspoken thought in this thread that pvp is what keeps us in BUM or something like that. Or that pvp is what bands the Corp together. No opinion just getting it out there.
5. I will be glad to help with any logistics as well. Especially if you say move this here and need it by such a date. No freighter as of yet either. Have the skills just not the ship.
6. Brubeck and I and training R&D skills like a mad men. We had around 50 jobs running yesterday and all were either personal or from one of the BUM member corps or players. If it needs done just let us know.
7. Since I have no 5punk proper characters right now I feel I have little to say about closing the corp yet I am not sure over all it changes anything. Unless... If by creating a new corp it allowed for a new structure of required participation with mostly new members . Random thought there though.
8. Since many are industrialist or more time there can we spend more time doing that or is the problem some of the old timers can do it themselves. I am thinking of your BUM post and some of the comments there.
9. I will throw out some of my personal goals.
a. Have R&D corp to own a freighter for Jack and Brubeck. Brubeck is fantastic and figuring things out. I want him to be able to move stuff when required.
b. Personally own a carrier. Not sure but I think the new mining one. Don't we all want a HOT ROD. narf it was one of the first goals I set in the game and it open up new avenues of 0.0 trade and logistics.
c. Be a part of a ship manufacturing team. I could do it myself but I like playing with you guys.

Well enough rambling for now.

Jack.

Another thought just hit me. With BUM is the Lyrus group the major factor in playing and all the other corps tagging along when it comes to pvp?

[centerededgedesign]

All 5punkers have their own opinion, hence the 'herd of cats' comparison often heard. Some cats like sparrow, some like mice, some like to burrow into furniture for crickets and dark hiding places. This is both our weakness and our strength. When we're threatened, we all band together, when the corp has a task, we step up to it in our own way. Please don't think that your opinion isn't important, everyone's is. Friz mentioned 'we' repeatedly, because he cares about all of us. (Rabbit more than others ofc, as long as the lube supply holds out). The hard part is rallying the cats without denying them theirs staple diet of sparrows, mice, and crickets that keeps their tummies full and happy.

Hopefully we can do that without rubbing lots of fur the wrong way. For those with cats though, you might realize that rubbing the fur the wrong way is quite effective at getting rid of the hairs your cat would otherwise have to consume through licking themself for long periods of time. I for one don't like licking my cat, and refuse to lick you lot just to get rid of dead fur. That's what Friz is for...

So, point to this post, or just random blabbery? PLEASE, help me rejuvenate 5punkorp by providing uber logistics to BUM, even if it's in a small way. Let me group our talents together into something much larger than a herd of cats.

Bomber, could I rely on you to check Jita prices weekly and update a spreadsheet? We're getting into some T2 component construction, and price data would be invaluable to ensure profitability. Brubeck is already on board with helping me to move stuff, so all I need is a builder, and we'll be helping the alliance with three small tasks that can happen fairly independantly. It just takes a little direction and vision, yet doesn't interfere with 5punkiness at all.

Then, if I can grow that into other endeavors, (and I have many many ideas that could work), we could be something major within BUM, allow people to join in on ops, eat flies, or just get cozy in Aunt Jenny's recliner that's full of cricket eggs. It will show any new members what our 5punkiness is truly like, rather than the quiet facade we've had of late.

Oh, and what's Bubble's email addy? I have a, um, recipe that I think she would enjoy!

[bomberesque]

Bomber, could I rely on you to check Jita prices weekly and update a spreadsheet?

np, I'll get a toon down there. Set the spreadsheet up with the stuffs you want checking and I'll update weekly or better. Alternatively, evemail / pm me the stuffs you want checked and I'll set up the s/sheet. (or is it the items in "item values" in the 5punk sheet already?

Discussion is good and I appreciate that participation has been on the rocks of late. herding cats is right; Friz and you lot do a great job, just trying to inject a bit of 5punkiness here and there.

On the note of your request (price checking) Are there other tasks that the less active of us can undertake? We can place sell orders, buy orders and that without needing to be online much afterall. Meanwhile, I'm going to work on my time management and see if I can't re-kickstart my participation a bit

[Miro Mishu]

I get to play for maybe one day in ten, although I keep up with everything that is going on thru the forums whilst i'm at work..

I know i've never been the most active (in space) but i'd like to think that I can help contribute ideas while offline.. I know, it's a poor substitue for being in a ship but hey, I play the cards i'm dealt.

As for the future of the corp, if the "actives" as i'll call them move out or we kick the "inactives" from here, i'm sure i'll get the axe.. but if I don't I will continue forward as best I can. I really did invest alot into Miro (not somthing someone who never intends on playing would do, really) but life always takes a front seat to spaceship pewpew.

Anyhow, I don't fault anyone for doing anything drastic in the comming days.. but I did want people to be able to look into the little window that is my life for a minute

[amblin]

.

[Lee]

narf, I don't really like the idea of an "uber-5punk". I haven't been very active lately and I don't see that changing for a while with university starting next week but I do like to be able to log on and join in on the odd PvP op.

I don't think I'm active enough right now to be a part of this "uber-5punk" and if you relegate the less active people to a lower down corp without access to PvP and a more active player base they'll soon get bored and become even less active.

Most of the less active players are that way because of a lack of time to play eve and I don't think they should be punished for that, there's no real benifit to splitting up the corp and you're only going to end up with the exact same number of active players but in a different corp.